The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Mohammad Asghar.

The Welfare of Farm Animals

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you, Madam Presiding Officer. Good afternoon, First Minister.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 1. What plans does the Welsh Government have to improve the welfare of farm animals in Wales? OAQ55109

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the Member for that question. Maintaining high levels of farm animal health and welfare has always been a key priority for successive Welsh Governments. Now that the United Kingdom has left the European Union, we are determined to ensure that we retain these high standards in Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you very much, First Minister, for the reply. CCTV has been mandatory in every abattoir in all areas in England where live animals are kept for slaughtering since 2018. Scotland announced plans for similar new laws last year. However, in Wales, 14 out of 24 slaughterhouses do not have cameras, although the Welsh Government has made money available for their installation. RSPCA Cymru and Animal Aid both support mandatory CCTV to deter abuse and to help vets with regulation and monitoring.First Minister, when will your Government make CCTV in abattoirs mandatory in Wales, please?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that follow-up question. He makes a number of important points there. The Member will be aware, I am sure, of the £1.1 million food business investment scheme that we run as a Welsh Government. The latest round of applications to that fund are currently being assessed. They include a series of applications from abattoirs in Wales to install, upgrade or improve CCTV facilities at those abattoirs. When those applications have been assessed, the Minister will make a judgement as to whether or not we have sufficient coverage of CCTVs in Welsh slaughterhouses, to avoid the need for a mandatory scheme. But, if she concludes that we've not made the progress that we wanted to see on the voluntary basis, where the taxpayer is paying for CCTV to be installed, then she will think about whether mandation is the right way ahead.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Anyone who watched Ffermio on S4C last night will know that the lambing season is upon us now, and it's an issue I've raised regularly in this Chamber, of course, namely this concern about dog attacks on sheep and lambs at this time of the year. Now, I've previously raised the need to tackle this, and the response I've heard is that the Government is doing more in order to promote awareness among dog owners on what needs to be done. Can you therefore give us an update, as we are coming to a key period now, where many newborn lambs will face the risk of dog attacks, on what exactly is the Government doing to raise that awareness among dog owners on their responsibilities in this area?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Llyr for that question. Of course, the legal responsibility remains with the dog owner. That is what the 1953 legislation makes clear.

Mark Drakeford AC: As a Government, we work closely with local authorities, with the RSPCA and others to make sure that owners of dogs are in no doubt about the responsibility that they have to ensure that they remain in control of animals if they take them into the countryside. It is a crime to allow dogs to worry farm animals in that way. Owning a dog is a privilege and not a right, and we work with others to make sure that the codes of practice that we have provided, in partnership with the industry, remind owners of their obligations to control their pets in those circumstances.

Mandy Jones AC: First Minister, we're all concerned about animal welfare, and I've raised this question in the Chamber before about my concerns about live animal exports. Now that the UK Government have said that they will be stopping live animal exports, and we are now finally leaving the EU, will the Welsh Government commit today that they will be doing the same?

Mark Drakeford AC: We supported the UK Government's call for evidence on a UK-wide ban in relation to the export of live animals for overseas slaughter. So, I think the Member can take it from that—that we supported the UK Government in that call for evidence on a UK-wide ban—that we would continue to support it in that way. We're working with DEFRA and the Scottish Government to determine the next steps now that that consultation has been concluded. In the meantime, the Welsh Government goes on enforcing the rules that govern the transportation of live animals on long journeys: rest periods, adequate access to feed and to water. But if there is to be a ban, and if it is to be a UK-wide ban, then we will support that.

Flooding

Suzy Davies AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government responding to the effects of recent flooding on protected areas of the natural environment in South Wales West? OAQ55121

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. While some localised flooding has been reported,Natural Resources Wales do not believe that the ecology of protected areas has been affected by recent flooding events. However, inspection and monitoring of land and assets continues, so new information may come to light as this work progresses. At this point, NRW's priority remains the recovery and assistance it is affording to flooded communities.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that answer. I've raised the issue of Kenfig nature reserve and its dunes with you before, and that has been hit by weather and flooding, not just in the past two weeks, but since Christmas. And you're right, all eyes are on homes and businesses at the moment, and I certainly don't want to detract from that, but I'm rather surprised to hear that NRW has taken the line it has. Have they not approached you, or the owners of that site approached Welsh Government, for any assistance towards mitigating the effects of that flooding?

Mark Drakeford AC: I'm not aware of any direct approach, and I did ask for a check to be made directly with NRW yesterday, and there was no report in the information I saw back of an approach in that way either. Of course, I will ask for a further check to be made, to see whether any request has come in. The note that I received from NRW did confirm that there had been some localised flooding within the Kenfig nature reserve, and while the flooding may have obstructed public access to the site for a time, NRW did not believe at that point that the ecology of the site had been damaged. Indeed, their advice to me was that, as a wetlands site, it's not unusual to see some inundation of water during severe weather, and that these areas are inherently resilient to the effects of bad weather, and that, at this point in their ability to assess the position, NRW don't believe that any further protection from flooding, from an ecological point of view, will be needed at the Kenfig nature reserve.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Dai Lloyd AC: Unfortunately, in some areas, the flooding has either been caused or has been exacerbated by blocked or broken culverts. In Ystalyfera, in the Swansea valley, I understand a capital bid has already been put to Welsh Government by Neath Port Talbot Council, so that remedial works can be undertaken to a broken culvert on land being purchased by the local authority for this purpose. Can you give an assurance that these types of capital funding bids will now be expedited to try and minimise future risks, and will you give an update in terms of discussions that you are having with Neath Port Talbot Council with regards to its overall capital funding requirement?
And in a neighbouring authority, in Gorseinon in the city and county of Swansea, I'm informed that householders who have been flooded have been told that they will be charged by the council to collect household items that were ruined by the flood. Surely, you will agree that this seems extremely unfair, and will you look to ensure that no council is charging householders in this situation?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there are questions on the order paper to me today about the general impact of flooding. I'll try and answer a couple of the points that Dr Lloyd has raised, but I don't think any of them refer to protected areas of the natural environment, as the question asked by Suzy Davies posed.
But in answering Dr Lloyd's specific question about capital for culvert repairs, that is covered by announcements the Welsh Government has already made about emergency help for local authorities, and I'm aware of other local authorities in Wales who have taken very direct and, I think, positive action to make sure that, where households have been flooded, they have as easy access as possible to skips, for example, without charge, without the need for permits to be provided, so that people who are in that dreadful position of having to clear homes of rubbish don't face another difficulty in their path.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, the last few weeks have seen communities across Wales devastated by storm Ciara and storm Dennis, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the emergency services and the communities up and down Wales who have worked tirelessly to support those affected.
Now, I appreciate that the Minister will be making a statement on this matter later today, but are you confident that the Welsh Government has done, and is doing, all that it can to protect and support those affected by flooding across the whole of Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. Can I echo what he said? Everywhere I went last week, Llywydd, meeting people in the most difficult of circumstances, the first thing they wanted to say to me was just how much they appreciated the efforts made by emergency services, sometimes to rescue them directly from life-threatening situations. So, even when they themselves were in awful predicaments, the first thing they wanted to do was to pay tribute to others, and I'm keen to echo his sentiments in that regard.
And he's absolutely right in what he said about community activity as well. I spent quite a part of one evening in Taff's Well rugby club just outside Cardiff and, the whole time that I was there, there was a procession of people coming to the club bringing goods, asking what more they could do, volunteering to be part of the effort that that centre was making to respond to the needs of people in those very difficult circumstances. And that sense of community effort in a crisis, I think, has been very characteristic of responses across Wales over the last two weeks.
The Welsh Government is focused, at this point, on the services that we can provide to help individuals and households, businesses and local authorities in dealing with the immediate aftermath of the crisis, and we've put a series of measures in place to assist them in doing that. There will be a much longer haul for many householders and businesses, and indeed for local authorities in repairing bridges, making good roads that have been damaged, checking flood defences to make sure that they can be made resilient for the next time an event of this sort happens; and, in that, we will be seeking the assistance of the UK Government, because the costs of that are well beyond what the Welsh Government itself could, in an emergency of this sort, be expected to bear.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, whilst some steps have rightly been taken and considerable progress has been made, I know first-hand from the conversations that I've had with some of those affected as well that they feel more could and should have been done sooner, and so it's clear that there are still lessons to be learnt and questions to answer.
Now, rightly or wrongly, some have expressed concerns around the co-ordination of the responses to some of these events, and I believe that that takes governments at all levels working together and collaborating more effectively than we've actually seen before.
Now, you may be aware of concerns raised by Mari Arthur, chair of Welsh Water's independent advisory panel, who said that:
'We're missing that leadership, I feel, at the top to bring that together. That's why things aren't happening.'
Now, in addition to that, I understand that it's also been 10 years since the publication of the last flood risk management strategy and, whilst the Government has consulted, we are yet to see an updated strategy, which surely will help in making sure that responses are better co-ordinated in the future.
First Minister, do you accept that the delay in publishing an updated specific Welsh flood risk management strategy has made some communities feel that flooding is simply not a priority? And how do you respond to the views of some in the sector that, moving forward, it's time that more effective leadership is shown on this matter?

Mark Drakeford AC: I'll begin by agreeing with the point that the Member has made about there being lessons to learn. There are bound to be lessons to learn, aren't there? And it's really important that, when the immediate crisis is over, all of those who've had a part to play in responding to it take the time to see whether everything that was there in the plan was delivered on the ground in the way that was intended.
I think there were very real efforts made to co-ordinate response across Wales. The emergency co-ordination centre that the Welsh Government runs was open throughout the weekend of storm Dennis. The emergency services command structure was in operation throughout that weekend and had been doing storm Ciara in north Wales as well. It was an important test of that command structure, and when I met one of the chief constables in Wales, he told me that he felt that the rehearsals that we had held here in Wales over recent months in preparing for a 'no deal' exit from the European Union and in relation to coronavirus had stood them in good stead in being able to put those arrangements into practice.That is not to say that there aren't lessons that we can draw on when we stand back from all of this, but I do think that there were real efforts made to co-ordinate and to use the structures that had been put in place to respond to emergency circumstances.
As far as the strategy is concerned, then yes, the strategy was out for consultation earlier last year. It closed in the autumn, and the Minister intends to publish the updated strategy in the months ahead. I doubt very much myself, Llywydd, that communities that found themselves on the sharp end of flooding events were concerned about the publication of a strategy at the point that they were dealing with the emergency, but that strategy is well in preparation. It will be published shortly and it will help build resilience and prioritise future investment in most at-risk communities.

Paul Davies AC: Well, I do say to the First Minister, it is important to have an updated strategy so that we can avoid, perhaps, some of these events in the future. And perhaps we need to rethink as well how we address flooding in the future, especially given the warning signs received at the start of this Assembly. In 2016, for example, the Wales Audit Office reported that lack of capacity within the Welsh Government and councils had delayed progress and threatened to undermine the long-term approach to managing the risks of coastal flooding and erosion.
Well, perhaps we're feeling the effects of that now, First Minister, and with no updated risk management strategy, it's hard to see how we can make sufficient and appropriate progress in the short term. Therefore, in light of the impact that the recent storms have had across Wales, what lessons has your Government learned about the way in which flooding is prioritised by your Government? And will you also commit to providing a full breakdown of how the Welsh Government will be allocating its resources on flood risk management so that communities right across Wales can see the level of investment that the Welsh Government is making in their areas?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. I agree that we will have to think differently about the future. I don't draw exactly the same conclusions as he draws, because I think that the figures will demonstrate when these events are over that there were 73,000 households across Wales, as a minimum, that were protected from the effects of this extreme weather event because of the flood prevention schemes that have been implemented in Wales over recent times. So, the idea that things had not been done, I don't think will bear scrutiny.
Where he is right, I think, is that the plans that have been in place have been drawn up in order to be able to resist the sorts of weather events that we have experienced over the last 50 years. And it may well be—climate science is telling us that the sorts of events that we saw over the last two weeks are likely to become more frequent and more intense in the future, and therefore, the test against which we judge flood prevention schemes will have to be different in order to meet that new intensity of risk, and in that sense, the future will have to be different to the past.
I discussed this yesterday with the Secretary of State in the meeting that we jointly chaired about coal tips in Wales. Coal tips that pose a risk are inspected very frequently by local authorities, by the coal authority and by NRW. They inspect them against the sort of risk that a winter would pose. If those risks are going to be different, then the standards of inspection will need to be different, and, therefore, the future, as Paul Davies said, will have to now meet those new circumstances.
As to publication of expenditure by the Welsh Government under the flood and coastal risk management programme, we do that all the time. Whenever a scheme is agreed—£44 million in the south-west of Wales recently—then we publish those schemes and we publish the amounts of money associated with them, because we are very keen that people in Wales can see how the £350 million that is being spent over this Assembly term is being used to protect them from the effects of river and coastal flooding.

Plaid Cymruleader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch. Last week, I saw for myself, first-hand, the deep sense of community spirit that the First Minister also referred to, and I'll be visiting residents in Pentre again tomorrow. This is not a time to walk on by on the other side, when people are facing such hardship and distress, or, in the case of Boris Johnson, simply not to turn up at all, of course.
Now, the repair bill—I've seen one estimate—could be up to £180 million in Rhondda Cynon Taf alone, and I know the Welsh Government has provided £10 million of immediate hardship relief. Could the First Minister say whether you have yet a figure for the amount that you're asking for the UK Government to provide? In the event that they are not willing to make up the shortfall, does the Welsh Government itself have sufficient reserves for the scale of the challenge that we face?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Adam Price for those questions. He is right to say that what the Welsh Government has done is to focus upon the immediate aftermath of the floods to make sure that we provide funding for individual householders directly affected, to pay for the clean-up costs of local authorities, to be able to begin to help businesses to get back on their feet. We can cover those costs from within our own budgets, by very careful management and drawing together of funds from different parts of Government.But beyond the immediate impact, when local authorities have major infrastructure repairs to be carried out, then that is not going to be £10 million, that's going to be tens and tens of millions of pounds. My colleague, Rebecca Evans wrote to the Treasury yesterday, formally setting out the fact that we will be looking to the Treasury for assistance with that bill.
It isn't possible, at this point, Llywydd, to put a precise figure on how much that will be, because some of the damage that will need to be repaired is literally still under water, so it hasn't been possible to get engineers down to look at the scale of the damage and to give us an assessment of what it will cost to put it right. The figure that Adam Price has referred to, which comes from RCT, I think is not an unreasonable estimate of what the damage in that county may be, and there's damage in many other parts of Wales, as well.

Adam Price AC: As the clean-up begins, of course, questions will need to be addressed about what could have been done differently—the lessons learned that the First Minister referred to. I was wondering if he could address some of those initial concerns. Natural Resources Wales have already admitted, I understand, that debris left behind by logging operations on the mountain above Pentre contributed to flooding there. There are also serious concerns that NRW don't have the capacity to cope with work that urgently needs to be undertaken. In Trehafod, Dŵr Cymru has made a £1,000 payment to 40 households without accepting liability as the pumping station there didn't function. So, can you, as a matter of urgency, look at the budget of NRW to ensure that it's adequately funded to deal with disasters on this scale and also set up an investigation into the role or contribution that any actions by either a statutory body or the utility made to some of the flood damage?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, just to repeat what I said to Paul Davies, Llywydd: of course, lessons will need to be learned. In relation to NRW's logging operation at Pentre, my understanding is that, in clearing diseased larch from a small part of the wood there, NRW did what the current guidance would suggest that they should do, which is to leave some of the smaller debris that you get when trees are being felled on the ground, because that's how you protect soil from erosion when trees are logged, and it's how you protect biodiversity gain. So, they were acting within the rule book as it's currently constructed. The question has to be now asked: is the rule book fit for these sorts of events, should they happen in future? That's just one example of lessons learned.
The summit that we held last week, Llywydd, did its best to draw everybody who had had a part to play in responding to the floods around one table. That included Dŵr Cymru, as it included the third sector and the voluntary sector in part of that response to the flooding that Adam Price referred to. We will be looking to see how all those players think about the part that they played and whether there are things that they would want to do differently in the future.
NRW's budget, like the budgets of all public services in Wales, has had to be calibrated against the impact of 10 years of austerity. I probably should have said, in answering Adam Price's first question, about the impact of the flooding on capital expenditure in the future. Part of the reason why we are having to ask the UK Government for assistance is because with six weeks of this financial year left to go, the Treasury wrote to us requiring us to repay to them £100 million of financial transactions capital, and £100 million of conventional capital, before the end of this financial year. They said that they had recalculated Barnett consequentials, and that that money needed to be returned to them. When I say to the Prime Minister that I want money to help us with the impact of flooding here in Wales, I'm essentially asking him to hand back to us money that he took away from us in the last few weeks.

Adam Price AC: When Yorkshire was hit with severe flooding in July and in November last year, and again this month, UK armed forces were drafted in to help. In the autumn, RAF Chinooks were called in to assist a pumping station near Doncaster following heavy rainfall. This resource—this level of response—might have been invaluable in the case of Trehafod and elsewhere. Although no infantry units are based in Wales—the First Battalion The Rifles is based, for example, just across the border, near Chepstow—Welsh men and women loyally serve in the forces and would, no doubt, have made a valuable contribution in serving Welsh communities during the crisis if asked to do so. Did you ask the UK Government, First Minister, for the assistance of the army? If not, why not, and will you in future if the need arises?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, the question as to whether or not assistance from the armed forces should be sought was very actively discussed by the emergency services command structure. Their decision over that weekend was not to make such a request because circumstances were so difficult and dangerous that only people who were specifically trained to be able to deal with them were thought to be safely capable of being deployed. That was the advice that they gave, and I thought that it was sensible to follow their advice.
They thought that drawing in the armed forces at that point would not have been a helpful thing to do because you needed those very specialist abilities and training to be able to cope with the sorts of extreme weather event that we saw, Llywydd. At the height of that storm, 900 cubic metres of water were coming down the Taff every second, and if you are trying to act in those circumstances, then you don't need a general army training to know what to do, you need to be trained in the way that our emergency services are trained, to know what is safe to do. Now, should that change, and should the assessment of those people who are better equipped than we are in this room, I think, to know whether help from armed forces would be a useful contribution, then of course we would look at it. But in the circumstances of that weekend, the assessment of those who are best equipped to make the assessment was that that was not the right moment to ask for such assistance.

Brexit Party leader, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, in response to Paul Davies, you said that local government, coal authorities and NRW all inspected coal tips. I wonder if you could reflect whether their responsibilities in that area are sufficiently clearly delineated or whether they're overlapping, with any associated potential for confusion. Could I also ask you, First Minister, whether you think changes to flood protection budgets, particularly the significant cut I recall, at least initially, being announced in 2016, have affected the current situation in any way? I infer from the funding request letter from Rhondda Cynon Taf politicians to the UK Government that this has Welsh Government support, and I hope that UK Government will agree to it. Do you think that this letter, this request for financial assistance outside of the block grant, could provide a template for future co-operation between Welsh and UK Governments?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those questions. I don't think that the budget in terms of flood prevention has been the problem over the last two weekends. Thinking of lessons learned, one of the things I think we will need to look at very carefully from now on is the many flood defences in Wales that held good, but were perilously close to being overtopped—in Monmouth, for example, where the flood defence is constructed to be able to deal with a rise in floodwater of 4.3m, and the river actually rose by 4.2m. So it was within a centimetre of those flood defences being overwhelmed. Now, they weren't overwhelmed, just as they weren't overwhelmed in Cardiff, and they weren't overwhelmed in Swansea, but in many places the gap between holding and not holding was narrow, and in lessons learned for the future we need to see whether we need to do anything to strengthen those further.
As far as help from the Treasury is concerned, I think we are already acting in a way that is consistent with rules that have been established over many years. When a completely unforeseeable event happens, and it happens on the scale of the sort that we saw over this weekend—and I don't think anybody believes that the ferocity with which the storm hit south Wales was foreseeable—[Interruption.]

You're answering the leader of the Brexit Party, and not the local Assembly Member.

Mark Drakeford AC: I don't believe that the event of that weekend was predictable, and when unpredictable events happen and costs are commensurately high, the ability to go to the Treasury for help from reserves is one we've used before, and we're using it again here.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, you were interrupted, but I will also just remind you of the point about the division of responsibilities between local government and NRW and the coal authorities in terms of those inspections.
One thing struck me about the RCT-based letters: it was a request to draw supplementary funding above the block grant in a devolved area, and as such could represent a change from the Barnett formula. If we are to see that as a template for future co-operation between Welsh Government and UK Government, would Welsh Government consider writing a letter of that sort, perhaps to draw capital from the shared prosperity fund for infrastructure projects, such as improvements to the A55 in north Wales or even the M4 relief road that you had promised to build? Also, Wales has an overall fiscal deficit this year of £13.7 billion, or 19 per cent of GDP, and we're asking UK Government for additional funding above that. Doesn't that show the danger of always demanding more and more powers and devolution and separation of Wales from the UK?

Mark Drakeford AC: I don't draw that conclusion at all, Llywydd. I think the case for seeking assistance from the UK Government is simply the case for the union. The union is a mutual insurance scheme in which we all pay in, and we're all able to draw out in circumstances where help is needed. It's why I've always been a supporter of the United Kingdom, because I think that system of mutual insurance has always been in Wales's interests. It's why I hope that the Prime Minister—who has awarded himself the title of Minister for the Union—will see that the request that we have made for assistance is one where he can demonstrate that the union really does work for Wales.

Swansea Bay and Western Valleys Metro

Dai Lloyd AC: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on the development of a Swansea bay and western Valleys metro? OAQ55138

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Dai Lloyd for that question. Four hundred and thirty two thousand pounds has been awarded to the City and County of Swansea in this financial year to develop the rail and bus business cases for the south-west Wales metro. New services will help to reduce travel times across the region.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that answer. So, are you fully confident that you have all the moneys that you're able to put forward towards the development of the Swansea bay metro, and will you ensure, on top of that, that the Valleys communities in the west are not neglected as part of this development?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, my colleague Ken Stakes will be making a statement on all of this later this afternoon. As I explained in my first answer, the Welsh Government has provided funding to the City and County of Swansea to allow them to carry out the necessary preliminary work to develop the south Wales metro. Stage 1 is completed, stage 2 will be completed shortly, and we look forward to working with local authorities—not just in Swansea, but, as Dr Lloyd has said, in the surrounding areas—to make sure that that multi-modal approach to the construction of a metro, bus and train services, that we are able to put that to work for the benefit of local residents.

Mike Hedges AC: I strongly support a metro system for the Swansea city region. Does the First Minister agree that stage 1 needs to be to get bus/rail interchanges at current railway stations with aligned timetables and buses stopping as close as possible to the railway station? Llansamlet, for example, not all of the bus stops are outside Llansamlet station and one of them is around the corner down another road, which, if you didn't know the area, you'd probably have great difficulty in finding. And can I also make my regular request for the reopening of Landore station?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those important points on behalf of his constituents, and of course he is right that the integration of bus and train services is at the heart of the metro concept—an integrated transport system.
The bus legislation that we hope to bring in front of this National Assembly will provide local authorities with the powers they need to be able to make practical sense of the disposition of bus and rail services so they are genuinely integrated in that way. And Mike Hedges, I know, will have welcomed the plan to improve bus services, particularly along the corridor between Ystradgynlais and Mumbles, which specifically is looking at how bus timetables and rail timetables can be brought together so that bus services operate in ways that are reliable, attractive, frequent and therefore better usable to residents.

Storm Dennis

Vikki Howells AC: 4. Will the Welsh Government outline what support they are providing to communities that have been affected by storm Dennis? OAQ55117

Jayne Bryant AC: 7. Will the First Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is supporting flooded communities in Wales? OAQ55141

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I understand that you have given permission for questions 4 and 7 to be grouped together. Following the multi-agency emergency flood summit last week, we have been working hard to put practical and financial support in place for households, businesses and local authorities affected by the flooding from both storm Ciara and storm Dennis.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, I'd like to place on record my thanks to yourself, to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, and to all of Welsh Government for your efforts to support those whose homes and businesses have been ruined by storm Dennis. The financial support that you are putting in place is much appreciated by constituents that I have spoken with, and, alongside support from Rhondda Cynon Taf council, will help those who have lost everything.The very visible presence of yourself and the environment Minister is also appreciated. You both visited flood-stricken areas of RCT several times in the last week, including on Wednesday when the environment Minister visited Mountain Ash with myself. This stands in stark contrast, First Minister, with the UK Government where Boris Johnson has not visited a single community that has been affected by flooding, or offered financial assistance, despite written requests from myself and other RCT AMs and MPs. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that the UK Government has a duty to help, both morally and legally?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Vikki Howells for that, and let me equally pay tribute to the actions that local Members across the Chamber have taken in their local constituencies to respond to the difficulties that local residents have faced. I know that Members here have been hard at work over the last fortnight in north and south Wales in making sure that local residents know that this National Assembly, this Senedd, takes very seriously the predicament that they have faced—my colleague Lesley Griffiths in Llangollen and Llanrwst, and Ken Skates as the Minister for north Wales in north Wales, as well as the visits to which Vikki Howells has referred.
As to the UK Government, the help that I look for from them is not necessarily visits, but the harder edged help of cash—the money that we will need, the money that, as I mentioned a moment ago, was taken away from us over the last few weeks, that money needs to be restored so that we are able to make sure that whether it is our very hard-pressed local authorities, or whether it is NRW as we heard earlier, that those organisations on the ground have the money they need to be able to deal not just with the events of these weeks, but the events of months ahead for affected communities.

Jayne Bryant AC: First of all, I'd like to add my deepest sympathies with all those who've been affected by the floods across Wales, and pay tribute to the emergency services and outstanding community efforts. The response from you, First Minister, and the environment Minister has been excellent and very welcome. However, the impact of these floods will be felt for months, even years to come, and I'm keen to see that momentum and support continues. Lessons do need to be learned and potential weak points in our defences need to be strengthened.
While Newport didn't see the levels of devastation by floods in other parts of Wales, I visited some of the worst parts in my constituency affected by flooding. The River Ebbw was at worrying levels in Dyffryn and at Bassaleg, and whilst the defences mainly held, in many places this was a matter of centimetres. Residents are grateful and they're hugely sympathetic to the worst areas across Wales, but are obviously fearful for the future. They have asked for assessments of the current defences and what support grants can be made available to better protect their homes.
Businesses have also been hit very hard. The popular Cefn Mably Farm Park has been devastated, and they're looking at months of closure as a result. This will not only affect the business and its customers, but the employees and their families. What support can we provide to ensure that businesses get back on their feet as quickly as possible?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jayne Bryant for that, Llywydd. I'll focus, if I may, just on the final part of that supplementary question—the help that is available for businesses. We made it clear last week at the summit that councils are able to use their discretionary powers to suspend council tax and non-domestic rate obligations on properties that have been flooded, and that the Welsh Government will reimburse those costs to local authorities under the emergency financial assistance scheme. So, that's immediate and direct help, and local authorities now know that they can offer that help and that the cost won't fall on them; they will be picked up through the Welsh Government's emergency financial assistance scheme.
Business Wales has been very active over the last week. There's a helpline that businesses can use to get through directly to a help desk that Business Wales is providing, making sure that businesses have the advice they need to deal with cash flow issues, liquidity issues. There was a surgery held in Pontypridd on Friday of last week that Business Wales was involved in, together with Mick Antoniw, the local Member. It was repeated on Monday in Coleg y Cymoedd, again making sure that businesses have that help directly provided to them. The Development Bank of Wales are targeting smaller businesses that may benefit from their £25,000 fast-track loan, again to try to make sure that where businesses need immediate help, we use that route to assist them, and my colleague Ken Skates has indicated that he is looking within budgets that he has, provided originally to assist businesses in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit, to see whether we might be able to repurpose some of those funds to assist businesses who find themselves in the circumstances set out by Jayne Bryant.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Can I identify with the sentiments that are being expressed across the Chamber in support of the help that is being given from all sides, whether it's the volunteers, the emergency services, or just communities themselves coming together for the flood victims in my own electoral region but also across Wales because this has affected the whole of Wales?
I would like to go back to the point that the leader of the opposition raised with you about the flood risk management strategy. Two years ago, the environment committee took evidence on this in its pre-budget scrutiny and was told that this was a document in preparation and would be available shortly. In response to that question today, First Minister, you said it will be with us in a few months' time. Really, First Minister, some two years on, the title says it all. It is the flood risk management strategy that would direct the rulebook that you highlighted that NRW work to at the moment and many other facets that are put in place to try and help alleviate some of this flooding that goes on with the climate change we are seeing at the moment. I appreciate you wouldn't be able to stop all flooding, but if you have a strategy that is dedicated to alleviating the risks of flooding, surely that document should be live and in circulation rather than, again this afternoon, hearing from you that it will still be a couple more months before that document is available. Can you indicate more precisely when that document will be available, and importantly, will that document have the budgetary considerations that will be needed to put the measures in place?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me just say again that the draft national strategy is available. Anybody who responded to the consultation will have seen it, and there was a good response to the consultation, and that didn't close until the autumn. So, there has been work to do to make sure that the comments that people contributed as part of the consultation are considered seriously and make a difference to the final strategy, which we intend to publish later this spring. So, we're not delaying it unduly. It will be an important document. I agree with what Andrew R.T. Davies and Paul Davies said about the importance of that strategy because it will show how the £350 million investment that this Government is making in flood and coastal erosion risks are being deployed in the best possible way.
And to return to a theme of earlier this afternoon once more, Llywydd, in terms of lessons learnt, one of the things that we will pick up in that strategy will be the need to try and shift some of the expenditure on flood management away from concrete-based solutions towards more natural-based flood defences, where we can use natural disbursement, for example, as a way of mitigating flood risk further downstream. So, the strategy is important, it will help us to pick up the lessons not just of the last couple of weeks but of this whole Assembly term, and it will underpin the very significant amount of expenditure that is already committed in this area.

Leanne Wood AC: The high rainfall levels have caused utter misery for hundreds of people in the Rhondda, and seeing is believing when it comes to the mess that's been left behind in people's homes, gardens and in the streets. We're all thankful for one thing, however, and that is that no-one lost their life in the Rhondda.
I've called for an urgent review of the stability of all coal tips left behind as a result of our industrial past. The disturbing landslide in Tylorstown is one that many people will have seen, but there have also been landslides in Clydach andPontygwaith, and we all know how devastating and frightening a moving coal tip can be. I wrote to you last week about these coal tips, and it's good to see that there has been some action on this since then. But I wonder if you can tell me what the timescale is for inspecting all of the coal tips in the Rhondda. Does the First Minister agree with me that we need to recalibrate what we thought was once safe, due to the adverse weather that is becoming increasingly common due to the climate emergency? Will he also accept that this new normal cannot be acceptable? We should have known that this was coming; we do know that it will happen again.
And finally for now, will the First Minister consider the reintroduction of a land reclamation scheme for brownfield sites that was cut just a few years ago, as this would go some way to ensuring the former coal tips are not just brought back into economic use but are also made safe?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those questions and agree with her entirely that to visit and to see and to speak to people whose homes have been devastated by the floods is a deeply sobering experience. And the level of human misery that has been caused in those households is palpable when you go there. And as people said to me when I was visiting them, in the end you can buy a new sofa, but what you can't do is replace the things that you have built up, having brought up a family, having lived in a property for not just years but decades, where all your memories are invested in it, and those things can never be recovered in that way. They made the same point to me as Leanne Wood has made this afternoon, that nevertheless, no lives were lost and that memories can be recovered and sofas can be rebought, but people can't be brought back. And there was a real sense of the effort that the emergency services had made to prevent the very worst from happening.
In relation to coal tips, what yesterday's meeting established was that NRW, the coal authority and the local authority have a shared approach, which is to identify on a scale those coal tips that give them the greatest cause for concern. And we received assurances yesterday that all those coal tips that are at the top of that list will have been investigated by the end of this week. Most of them have been investigated already, and assurances have been received from engineers that they don't pose a risk to life and property.
But there was a very important discussion that connects to Leanne Wood's point about the new normal, that those assessments are being made against the standards that have been used over the last decades, and those standards may not be satisfactory for years ahead. So, we will definitely return to that discussion with those authorities and with the experts that they deploy on the ground. Interesting ideas were being explored yesterday about better monitoring possibilities for those tips—new technologies that weren't available in the 1980s that we may be able to deploy today. And that effort will go on. The group that met yesterday will meet again to receive further reports, to look ahead and to make sure that the reassurances that people have every right to expect can be made, and that if further action is necessary, it will be taken, and that the standards against which the different public authorities carry out their responsibilities to provide those assurances are fit for the future.

Vascular Services

Siân Gwenllian AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on the safety of vascular services in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board since they were restructured? OAQ55124

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you, Siân Gwenllian, for that question. Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is currently undertaking a review of the vascular network service, established in April 2019. It is anticipated that the report will be discussed at their board meeting at the end of March.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you for confirming that the board will be holding an internal review of the very grave and concerning problems that have arisen as a result of the restructuring of vascular services. But, First Minister, an internal review is not good enough. People in north Wales have lost all confidence in the managers of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, whilst, of course, appreciating the work of the front-line staff very much indeed. So, I am most disappointed that your Government is not going to hold an independent review in light of all the complaints that have been unearthed by the community health council. Why won't you accept the very grave picture that is now emerging, and why won't you go there and hold an independent review as a matter of urgency?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I don’t think that it is fair just to refer to the work of Betsi Cadwaladr as something that is just an internal review, because they will be using people outwith the board to advise on the work going forward. The consultation that they will be holding is with experts in the field, and they are independent of the board as well. That is why Professor John Brennan, who works in Liverpool and is a consultant vascular surgeon, is part of the process of reviewing the service, which has existed for less than 12 months currently. Also, in the work that Betsi Cadwaladr has commissioned, they will be using new national data that has emerged in order to compare the service currently available in north Wales—to compare what goes on in Betsi Cadwaladr with what goes on in other comparable services in other places within the United Kingdom. Nobody here has seen that report as yet, and I am willing to wait to see what that report says, to see what the independent compilers of this report have to say in it, and to see whether we need to do anything in addition to that.

Welsh Government Spend

Neil Hamilton AC: 6. What assessment has the First Minister made of the value for money and effectiveness of Welsh Government spend? OAQ55140

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we draw on a wide range of guidance and evidence to help assess our investment decisions, including the high-level principles set out in Her Majesty's Treasury's Green Book, and the seven goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the First Minister for that reply. Does he agree with me that one of the many failures of devolution is that, over the last 20 years, Wales has actually dropped to the bottom of the income table of the home nations and the regions of England, and one of the biggest failures of Labour and Plaid Cymru Governments in the last 20 years has been the failure to attract higher paid employment to Wales? The Government has been strong on road maps and strategies, but actually very poor on delivery. We've had enterprise zones that have spent about £250 million in the last decade, at a cost of about £20,000 per job, but that has only scratched the surface. In the case of the area around Ebbw Vale, the Government turned away the chance of £450 million-worth of private investment for the Circuit of Wales to replace it with £100 million promised of taxpayers' money in 2018, and, as yet, no foundations have been laid for the buildings that were promised, and, of course, no jobs have been created. In the meantime, the Heads of the Valleys road—the Gilwern to Brynmawr section—is £100 million over budget, and much delayed. What we see here is a Government that just hasn't got a grip on the major economic problems of Wales. Is it any wonder, therefore, that more and more people are thinking that this place is pointless and that the Assembly should be scrapped?

Mark Drakeford AC: I think the Member is much in danger of confusing views of the institution with views of individuals who find themselves here. So, it's a mirror, rather than an analysis, that he—that would lead him to the best conclusion.
Look, I completely disagree with what he has to say, Llywydd. He's ever gloomy in his views of Wales and of Welsh people. People who were here in 1999 will remember that if we'd said then that, within 20 years, Wales would have economic inactivity levels at or below the UK average, when we were so far behind 20 years ago, and getting further behind—. If, within 20 years, you thought that that gap had not just been narrowed, but had been completely filled, people would have said to you that you were being absurdly optimistic about what could be achieved in a 20-year period.If you'd said then that the latest unemployment figures showed unemployment in Wales not just at the UK average but below the UK average, people would have thought that you were being stretchingly ambitious in what could be achieved in that period. If you'd said to people back then that the rate of business growth in Wales would be faster than the UK average, that business survival rates at the end of a year would be greater than the UK average, people would have thought you were describing an economic future that was beyond our grasp. That's the reality of the Welsh economy. It's so far away, it is so far away from what the Member hopes to be able to describe in a way to rescue his own future here. It has nothing at all to do with the future of Wales.

The Valuation Office Agency

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 8. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s service level agreement with the Valuation Office Agency? OAQ55119

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. The Welsh Government concludes an annual service level agreement with the Valuation Office Agency. It sets performance targets that the Welsh Government expects the VOA to meet. Decisions made by the VOA are determined by that agency, and are entirely independent of the Welsh Government.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm sorry, First Minister, I call that 'passing the buck'. During Plenary last November, I raised the fact that your Welsh Government had a £9 million of taxpayers' money SLA with the VOA. Now, some of my businesses in Aberconwy are still waiting over two years to see their business rate appeal's progress, leaving many businesses with financial difficulty and, in fact, financial ruin. Now, the Counsel General, of course, agreed to look into this last November. What a waste of time, because in response to a recent written Assembly question, the Counsel General stated:
'As the provisions in the service level agreement are being met'
They're not being met. Those are your words.
'and the agreement itself is being monitored, I have not identified the need for further action.'
Well, I would invite either you or you, First Minister, to come and speak to some of my businesses who are still waiting now for their business rate appeal. When I procure something for me or my family, I have a say in the quality of that service delivered. You are the First Minister of Wales, you have a say on the quality of the service delivery from the VOA. There's no getting away from it. So, I would like to know how are you going to review the targets that the VOA are expected to meet, and how do you actually scrutinise the use of taxpayers' money and this failing service here in Wales? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member. I want to agree with her that the performance of the VOA in specific instances of the current appeals process is not satisfactory. But the Member does need to recognise that this is quite properly an entirely independent arm of Government, and it has to be. It's right that it is. I did ask my officials yesterday to see whether the VOA could provide me with any further updates on the two instances that the Member has written to me about over recent months, and they refused to provide those details. They refused to provide the details because they said it would not be proper for them to disclose to Government the confidential matters that they have to determine with the people who use their service. And, on reflection, I think they were right. That's why we have arm's length organisations, so that Governments don't make these decisions; the VOA does.
Now, if the VOA is not delivering on its service level agreement with us, then we need to put that right. But my way of putting it right is probably different to the Member's, because I want us to change the appeal system in Wales altogether. The appeal system is not fit for purpose. It's been changed in England and has run into enormous difficulties there. What we have said is that we have brought forward the revaluation from 2022 to 2021, provided the UK Government stick to that—it was interesting to see that they didn't have anything in their Queen's Speech to put that commitment on to the statute book, but it's a commitment they've given in the past. If they honour it, then we want to change the appeal system here in Wales, alongside that revaluation, because it's just leading up to and just following a revaluation, Llywydd, that the appeals come in. We want a new system next time around, and that will allow us, I believe, to avoid some of the difficulties that we've seen with the current system.

Finally, question 9, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Coronavirus

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 9. Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for educational establishments affected by steps to prevent the spread of coronavirus? OAQ55114

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for the question. The Welsh Government has developed and published guidance with Public Health Wales for all schools and educational establishments in Wales. These advise on which steps should be taken to prevent the spread of coronavirus.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. Coronavirus, of course, is already a threat to the mobility of people across the world, and the benefit that that mobility provides. My local university, Bangor University, is one of those that has become more and more reliant on their ability to recruit students from abroad. Students from China come to Bangor in significant numbers. So, can I ask you what consideration the Government has started to give to how we may need to provide support for institutions such as Bangor University if it became more difficult to allow students from nations such as China to come and study there? We hope, of course, that it won't come to that, but we need to do that preparatory work now, in case.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for that question. It's true to say that the impact of coronavirus will have an effect on our universities, and that effect has already been seen, because students from some of our universities are out in China and they've recalled them back. Some staff members are due to go to China, and other countries in that part of the world, and they're unable to go there at present. I have seen a detailed report from the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, which draws the information together from all the universities in Wales, and which sets out the current situation, it then looks forward to the challenges if the coronavirus continues throughout this year, and the impact that that will have on student recruitment into Wales. I can ask the Minister for Education to see whether we can share the information that we have at present on Bangor with Rhun ap Iorwerth, and other Members who have universities in their own areas.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The business statement and announcement is next. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are several changes to this week's business. Immediately after this business statement, the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs will make a statement to update Members on the emergency flood summit. Later this afternoon, the Counsel General and Brexit Minister will make a statement on legislation related to leaving the European Union. To accommodate these statements, I've postponed the statement on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board until next week, 3 March, and progress on the single cancer pathway until 17 March. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, may I ask for a statement from the Minister for Education about the disruption of pupil learning caused by the strike action by teachers at Llanwern High School and Caerleon Comprehensive School in Newport? Teaching unions say that industrial action has been prompted by the overhaul of the curriculum in Wales. The acting general secretary of NASUWT says that the union has not heard any convincing argument for why this proposed restructuring is necessary. The National Education Union Cymru says that Caerleon Comprehensive School has suffered from historic and prolific underfundingand the staff have been subjected to restructuring and redundancy procedures on a regular basis for a number of years. They fear a reduction in staffing levels, and support for children with special needs being withdrawn. Can we have a statement from the Minister on what action she's taking to allay the fears of teaching unions, so that disruption to the education of pupils at these two Newport schools can be avoided? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Mohammad Asghar for raising his concerns relating to two specific schools in Newport, but perhaps on this occasion, certainly in the first instance, I would invite him to write to the Minister for Education setting out those concerns, so that she can consider an appropriate response to you.

Leanne Wood AC: The matter I wish to raise today concerns Christopher Kapessa, a 13-year-old black boy whose body was found in the River Cynonnear Fernhill last year. I mentioned the colour of Christopher's skin because his family strongly believe that it's a factor in the Crown Prosecution Service's decision not to bring a prosecution in connection with his death.
The decision came despite the CPS's assertion that there was, to use their own words, 'sufficient evidence' that Christopher was pushed into the river. Christopher's distraught family says that there may well have been further evidence to make a stronger case, had the police interviewed more than only four of the 14 people who were at the scene during his death. It's hard to argue with the assertion of Christopher's mother, Alina, when she says:
'If this had been 14 black youths and a white victim we have no doubt that the approach of the police and outcome would have been different.'
While criminal justice remains a reserved matter there are limits as to what the Welsh Government can do. However, at the time of the incident, I conveyed the concerns from the family and urged, albeit informally, that this Welsh Government look into the matter, because community cohesion is devolved, and so this is a case that should be of concern to you from that perspective.
So, what representations do the Welsh Government intend to raise on this matter? And can this Government send out a clear statement that everyone in Wales is equal, that they should be treated equally, regardless of gender, sexual preference and skin colour, and that everyone deserves to understand that black lives really do matter?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Leanne Wood for raising what is a particularly harrowing and distressing case. I remember reading about Christopher and finding the entire story that I was reading absolutely appalling and horrific.
Leanne Wood is right that criminal justice does remain a reserved matter, but the Welsh Government and, I know, this Senedd as a whole has a really strong interest in ensuring that we promote equality and respect and a strong, diverse Wales here in our country.
So, I will ask the Minister with responsibility for relationships with the police, and the Minister who also has responsibility for equalities and community cohesion, to give some thought to your comments this afternoon in terms of what more we can do to promote a strong, cohesive Wales and ensure that everybody in Wales is equal, and what more we can do to push forward that message that everybody deserves to be treated absolutely equally.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could I ask for two statements? One statement would be from Welsh Government Ministers on the issue of erosion of land behind Valley terraces on which run old unadopted lanes alongside watercourses, which threaten over time to erode not only the lanes but the rear gardens of private properties.
So, in Caerau in my constituency we have a row of terraced houses backing onto such a watercourse and an unadopted lane; the sort of lanes that the old council wagons, in the days of those tiny wagons, went up the back and took the steel galvanised bins away and so on. They no longer use them. They're unadopted. They're not owned by anybody, it seems now, but yet the river erodes. In the storms that we've recently seen, they're increasingly being eaten away towards the back gardens of these properties. It's contested land, it's no-person's land, nobody wants to do anything about it, and yet the home owners are really worried.
So, could we have a statement on what happens to this no-man's land, in effect, of unadopted lanes on the backs of properties where streams, in these sort of deluges that we've seen, are now being eaten away and the effect on properties? Or perhaps the Minister could meet with me to discuss this, because I suspect it's something that is widespread across the south Wales area.
Could I also ask for a statement on the issue of safe road crossings on A roads? Now, A roads, of course, are major roads, they're heavy with traffic, that's why they are A roads, they're major thoroughfares. But the difficulty is that, in some of our Valleys, including my own in the Llynfi, but also in the east of my constituency, it's the only road that goes up that Valley. If people can't cross from one side where they live to the shops or the school on the other side because—. The explanation given is that the guidance does not allow for safe crossings to be done across A roads normally. Well, it would be helpful to have clarity on that. Failing that, perhaps I could meet with the Minister, if the business manager, the Trefnydd, could help me; meet with the Minister, discuss this problem, and seek clarity on the guidance on safe road crossings for pedestrians and others on A roads in the Valleys.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Huw Irranca-Daviesfor raising both of those issues. The first related to unadopted lanes, and, of course, the Minister, Ken Skates is currently undertaking a piece of work that looks at unadopted roads, and I'm sure that many of the lessons that we'll learn from that particular piece of work will apply equally to the issue of unadopted lanes.
We've heard a lot from the First Minister today about our immediate response to the recent floods, but the next piece of work, as we move on from the immediate urgency of an emergency situation, will be to look at those longer term issues. Of course, the First Minister referred to the Welsh Government's forthcoming flood strategy, and that will encourage wider catchmentprogrammes and more natural flood management, recognising the role that it plays in reducing run-off and peak flows in rivers and so on. So, some of that, I think, will also be relevant to your concerns today.
But I will certainly seek to arrange a meeting with the Minister to achieve that clarity that you require on the issue of crossings on A roads, and I'm sure that he will be in touch shortly to arrange that.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Organiser, could I seek a statement, please, from the economy Minister in relation to St Athan enterprise park, and the airfield, in particular? The Welsh Government had a contract with Serco to provide seven-day air control cover so that operators could use the airfield on a seven-day basis. As I understand, there's been an issue recruiting suitably qualified air traffic controllers, and, therefore, that's limited the use of the airfield, and in particular, lost business for some of the operators who operate out of the facilities there.
As of 1 April, Cardiff Airport are taking over the management, as I understand it, of this particular operation and the airfield itself, and I hope you'd agree with me that, given 1 April is only a month away now, it would be opportune to bring a statement forward outlining what compensation, if any, has been paid to operators on the airfield because of the lack of seven-day cover, what money has been recovered from Serco because they haven't fulfilled their contract, and what improvements might be put in place once Cardiff Airport take over the operation, so that seven-day-a-week use of the airfield can be brought forward.

Rebecca Evans AC: The Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales does have questions tomorrow in the Senedd, so that might be an opportune moment to raise those particular concerns about St Athanairfield, but, failing that, I will certainly make the Minister aware of your request for a fuller statement.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to ask for a statement from the Welsh Government covering what support will be made available for children who are affected by the recent flooding. This has affected communities throughout my region, in Monmouth, in Newbridge, in Llanbradach and lots of other places.
Last week, I visited residents in Edward Street in Ystrad Mynach, who were woken at 2.30 a.m. by a neighbour who just happened to be awake to alert them to the fact that their street was flooding. They were able to do what they could, but, obviously, a great deal of damage was done to their properties, and it'll take months to do the repair work. But, aside from the physical damage done to the actual houses, what was concerning the residents most was the impact that this has had on their children—children who were just traumatised by seeing their homes turned upside down; who lost toys; who have to stay away with relatives and friends; children who lost school uniforms; and who have nowhere to do their homework now that schools are back after the holiday. At one point, one resident was in tears telling me that her children were staying with their grandparents at the moment, but they're afraid to come home at all, because they're convinced that the flooding will happen again in the middle of the night.
So, I'd ask what work the Government could do to work with councils, with schools across the region to co-ordinate what help and support could be offered. But I'd also ask what the Welsh Government could do, if they'd consider making counselling services available to children who aren't of school age who are affected by the flooding, who won't be able to take any advantage of support services that are available in schools, but who are, nonetheless, in need of care and compassion, because of how frightened and confused they are. What's happened with the floods will have been devastating for everyone affected, but it must be especially terrifying for children. I'd welcome any opportunity to meet someone from the Government to discuss this. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Delyth Jewell for raising what's a really important aspect of the recent flooding episodes, and that is the distress it will cause particularly to children and also to young people as well, who, for all the reasons that you've described, might find it difficult to go home and feel safe at home. So, the points that you made are very well made, and we do have a statement next this afternoon from the Minister for environment. Although this is very much a cross-Government response, the Minister this afternoon will be setting out some of the things that we have been doing right across the Government. Of course, we will take into consideration your points as we move forward on this.

David Rees AC: Can I ask for two statements, Minister? Yesterday, we had the great news of 100 jobs being allocated at William Hare in Risca on a steel fabrication plant. But, in an interview with the news broadcasters, the managing director identified that Port Talbot works was a crucial part of the future of the steel industry, not just in Wales but the UK. Now, I understand that the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales has had a meeting on the steel council with the previous Secretary of State. But, can we have an update in relation to what happened at that steel council meeting?
Can you also include in that update what progress is being made in discussions with the new Secretary of State to ensure that, as we go forward, the budget that is due in a few weeks' time actually reflects upon the high energy costs that industries such as the steel industry are facing, and something that the UK Government can do to ensure that the steel industry actually has a strong future here in the UK?
The second one, I have a constituent who has met with me recently on a boundary dispute issue. He actually wrote to the Secretary of State for Wales, and a response from an official indicated—and the words were—that boundary disputes are now the responsibility of the devolved nations. Now, I'm unaware of that, but if we could have clarity as to the Welsh Government's role in boundary disputes, that would be helpful, so that when issues come to me I can address those points. That was from a UK Minister's office.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to David Rees. I'll certainly ensure that I liaise with my colleagues to provide you with detailed answers to both of those points. On the first, being the steel industry meeting, I'll ensure that you do get an update as to the outcomes of that and the discussions that have taken place following that particular meeting. Of course, Ken Skates does have questions tomorrow again, so there could be opportunities to raise that issue with him.
On the boundaries issue as well, I know that the Minister will provide you with a written answer on that issue. I know that she has organised a detailed briefing session for Assembly Members from the planning inspectorate, so that might be a useful opportunity to explore some of these issues as well.

Nick Ramsay AC: I'd like to ask for a statement on water resilience. You may find that a strange thing for me to ask, given the flooding of recent times, so perhaps I should say: drinking water resilience across Wales. I know that we have a statement on the emergency flood summit immediately after this statement. I think that this is an issue that may or may not come up during that statement, Minister, but it is one that is a standalone issue that needs to be looked at.
There was a pretty major issue with the Mayhill water treatment works in Monmouth last week, which I know the Minister is aware of. The treatment works were flooded. Dŵr Cymru could not get into the treatment works to fix it, so they ended up having to put on replacement tankers. They did an incredibly good job, actually, despite the fact that lots of the roads were flooded, and the worst-case scenario was warded off.
However, I wonder if, at this point in time, or once the floods subside, the Minister could look at drinking water resilience across Wales to make sure that, in future, any weak spots in the system like the Mayhill treatment station are dealt with, so that people across Wales can be sure that, when we in future do have more instances— as we probably will, with climate change increasing—like the recent flooding, the water system will be able to cope.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I'm very pleased that the treatment works issues that you described have now been resolved but, of course, the Minister has been here to hear your request for a statement on drinking water resilience more widely.

Finally, Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed AC: The first statement that I wanted to ask for was from the Deputy Minister for Culture, actually, in relation to the soundings that we're hearing from the UK Government that there may be changes to the BBC licence fee, and that it may potentially change to a subscription service. Now, I know that this all has not been confirmed, but of course this will have implications for Wales in relation to BBC Wales and also S4C, whose whole funding stream will be moved imminently to the licence fee. Would we be able to have a statement about what conversations the Deputy Minister has had with the UK Government in this regard, and then potentially in relation to how they may be looking at alternativesto how Wales and broadcasting in general may be looking for the future here in Wales.
My second request for a statement is with regard to a request to the environment Minister for a statement on opencast restoration. I ask this because, in the last week, it's not directly to do with flooding, but the Kenfig Hill void that was left by Celtic Energy is that—it's water that has been contained because Celtic Energy left without restoring the whole site. Bridgend council has said that they can't afford to fully restore it, and they have said that, in light of the floods, it's safe, which I've written to NRW to confirm, but the wider point is that we need to ensure that all of these opencasting applications are restored, which they're not being, and I would urge the Government to give us a statement as to what future planning they have in mind to help these areas become naturalised again so that we are not left with these big holes in the ground.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising those two issues. The issue of the BBC licence fee is very much an emerging issue, and I know that the Deputy Minister is very alive to the discussions and the issues that are coming to the fore there. I know that, in due course, if there is an update to provide you, we'll certainly be keen to do so. The environment Minister heard your request for a statement on opencast restoration, and she says in the first instance, please could you write to her in order for her to respond fully to those particular concerns that you've raised.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs: Emergency Flood Summit Update

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, the emergency floods summit update, and I call on the Minister to make the statement, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Over the last two weeks, many communities throughout Wales have suffered devastating effects from storms Ciara and Dennis. I want to say again that my thoughts, and those of my Cabinet colleagues, are with all those who have been affected.
These two storms are two of the most severe and widespread flooding incidents we have experienced in Wales for many years. At the peak of storm Dennis, there were 61 flood alerts, 89 flood warnings and two severe flood warnings in force. This is more than Natural Resources Wales has ever issued. The rivers Taff and Usk reached their highest levels in more than 40 years and, at its peak, 900 tonnes of water per second was flowing down the River Taff.
As a result of these two storms, we have seen severe and widespread flooding in communities in north, mid and south Wales. There are confirmed accounts of more than 1,000 homes suffering internal flooding and more than 300 businesses being directly affected. The threat has not yet passed. Yesterday, a severe flood warning was issued in Bangor-on-Dee and we saw flash flooding in Dolgellau over the weekend following further heavy rain. We do not yet know the full extent of damage. Teams on the ground are continuing to verify the damage and likely cost of repairs as they start the clean-up. The Welsh Government wants to thank everyone involved in the response to the flooding, from the emergency response to the ongoing recovery. The emergency services, local authorities, Natural Resources Wales and volunteers have worked around the clock to address the immediate impact of the flooding.
I have seen first-hand some of the devastation caused as I visited communities across Wales, in Llanrwst, Tylorstown, Pontypridd, Llanhilleth, Crickhowell and Mountain Ash. But many more communities have been affected. I have spoken with people who saw for themselves the incredible response from their local community as schools, halls and centres opened their doors to help those in need. There were incredible acts of kindness and generosity as people came together to help and there were powerful and humbling levels of resilience. One example, Llanhilleth Miners Institute in Blaenau Gwent, provided shelter, advice and three meals a day to all those who needed it.
These floods have had a significant and financial impact on councils, businesses and individuals. Last week, the First Minister chaired an emergency summit, announcing a £10 million fund to help meet the costs of the initial response, including support for those affected by the flooding. However, this of course will not be enough to cover the full costs to repair the damage caused by storms Ciara and Dennis.
The emergency flood relief scheme is now available. Households affected by flooding will be able to claim £500 each with a further payment of £500 available to those without flooding insurance. Support will also be available for businesses and high streets.Business Walesis ready to support affected businesses. Any business affected should contact their helpline, who can provide practical advice, including help with recovery plans.
I've heard from many home owners who lost everything and who have previously been declined flood cover. Since 2016, Flood Re has been in place to enable home owners to access affordable insurance, but there is a lack of awareness about the scheme. I want to work with the insurance sector to ensure Flood Re is publicised more effectively.
Emergency funding for repairs to flood infrastructure was immediately made available after storm Ciara, and extended to cover storm Dennis. Urgent works to assets, including defences and culverts, will be 100 per cent funded by the Welsh Government. This applies to both NRW and local authorities.
The number of properties affected and the damage caused has been devastating. But we know this could have been a lot worse without the network of flood defences. Across Wales, more than 73,000 homes were protected from flooding by this network of flood defences. This is a reflection of the £350 million we've invested in flood risk management since 2016. Going forward, we will work with local authorities and NRW to identify whether more schemes will be needed to further reduce risk. I also want to increase financial and practical support to local authorities to accelerate the development of new flood projects.
My officials are exploring ways to better support the development of new schemes and maintenance works, including providing 100 per cent funding for all preparatory work prior to construction. This would include all costs of modelling and design. We will also explore practical ways on how to progress more natural solutions, and wider catchment management to reduce both the amount and the rate of run-off, to reduce peak flows and help address the quick onset of flooding.
These storms have once again raised the issue of the safety of coal tips for communities living in their shadow. Many of us will have seen images of the dramatic landslip at Tylorstown. There are more than 1,200 of these tips across the former mining areas of south Wales. They are a legacy of our industrial past. Many of these tips were abandoned more than a century ago, and we have been working since devolution to address the issue of tips, and some of the sites have undergone work to transform them. The First Minister met the Secretary of State for Wales yesterday to discuss the safety of these. As a priority, we are working closely with the UK Government and partners—including the Coal Authority, Natural Resources Wales and local authorities—to ensure we have a full picture about the current checks and monitoring systems in place.
All the evidence suggests that we will see more storms as a result of climate change. Later this year, I will publish our new national strategy for flood and coastal erosion, which sets out how we will manage the risk over the coming decade. But flood risk management is more than just building higher and stronger defences. We cannot prevent all flooding. We need to be more resilient, we need to prevent flooding from happening and we need to be better at raising awareness about the risk of flooding so better decisions can be made.
We are promoting wider catchment projects, adaptive measures to respond to climate change, better information provision to communities and the sharing of ideas to do things better. We will continue to support people to recover from these storms and the flooding they caused. I commend and sincerely appreciate the work of all those who continue to work on the recovery effort, supporting people, businesses and communities alike.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement, and I appreciate there will be some cross-over with, obviously, the remarks that the First Minister dealt with during his questions, but rightly so that they were taken in such high profile in the First Minister's questions segment of today's business.
I too would join in the comments that you have identified with and sided with on thanks to the emergency services, to the volunteers, and to individuals themselves, who, in the face of complete and utter devastation of whole lives being washed away, have been remarkable in their courage and fortitude in the way they've faced up—whether that be in the first week of storms, or whether that be in the second week of storms. Looking at the weather this morning, another great big blob of rain, sadly, is due at the end of this week again, it is. And to actually see that resilience in our communities really does show what it is be Welsh, and ultimately stand shoulder to shoulder with each other in their greatest time of need.
I'd like to touch on specific areas, if I may, because I know just from our benches we have six contributions on this particular statement, and so I'd like to be quite precise in what I'm asking you, and I'm sure other Members will deal with those points in the statement.
The coal tips that you touched on is a really important area of concern in many communities, but in particular in my own electoral ward, because most probably that was one of the visuals that people could see played night after night on the news clips. And as you've identified in your statement, there are some 1,200 tips of one shape or form or another across Wales and, as I understand it, a third here in the top category, category D. The First Minister in his answer identified three authorities who are responsible for inspecting those tips—they were the Coal Authority, NRW and councils. Can you confirm that they do have a joined-up inspection process and that when each authority inspects, that information is shared with the other authorities so that there is complete confidence that things aren't sitting on shelves, and when problems might or might not occur, one organisation knew about it but another didn't know about it? And also, can you identify what type of measures might be being considered by Government to move forward in making sure that any advice that is given is acted on, more importantly, because obviously this is going to come at a cost?
I heard what you said about the meeting with the First Minister and the Secretary of State. So far today, I've heard three costs of what people think the potential clear-up operation might be. Yourself in your press conference—this isn't a criticism—this morning touched on tens of millions. The First Minister in his radio broadcast touched on £100 million, and I think in First Minister's questions a Member said £180 million just in Rhondda Cynon Taf alone. So, it is really important for us to understand how Welsh Government, working with its partner organisations and the UK Government, are able to put a final figure on what might be required to support communities and support local authorities and other public agencies, and businesses as well, in seeking that money from the Treasury. Because I think in fairness to the Welsh Government, if demands were coming in thick and fast they would want to know the quantum of what they're being asked for, and I think it's vital that we understand how Government is working to bring that figure to a conclusion, so that we can actually understand the magnitude of what is required here.
I'd also like to understand exactly how the infrastructure points are being taken forward within Government. My colleague Nick Ramsay from Monmouth touched on the clean drinking water situation in Monmouthshire, but other infrastructure issues have stuck up above the parapet on this one. If you take Natural Resources Wales and the issue of the culvert in Pentre in the Rhondda, there are many issues about how this infrastructure is managed and how it is regularly maintained and, importantly, where faults are found, the timeline that is put in place to rectify the faults that are found. Can you indicate how your department interacts with Natural Resources Wales, local authorities and other partner bodies that are responsible, such as Dŵr Cymru, to make sure that when maintenance programmes are required, those maintenance programmes are carried out on that important infrastructure?
I'd also like to understand how you're working with the UK Government on the insurance side of things. I appreciate it's for the insurance industry to step up to the plate and, in fairness, in many instances I've heard of insurance assessors going over and above what would be expected of them to get claims processed and inspect properties so that people can have peace of mind that those inspection claims are being processed in a timely manner. But it is important that the speed of processing and the speed of assessment is kept up, and whilst we move further and further from the date of the actual flood, we can understand that there might be some taking the foot off the throttle on this. That cannot be allowed be happen and you in Government and, in particular, the UK Government working collaboratively, must make sure the insurance sector steps up to the plate on this.
I would again reiterate how important it is that we have the flood risk management strategy as soon as possible. This has been a piece of work that has been undertaken by Welsh Government for some considerable time, and as it is such a vital piece of work to inform Government and other public bodies of what the responsibilities will be, to know that it will be with us in a couple of months really does leave some questions to be asked. If you could be more specific, as it is your department dealing with this, to give us a timeline that we're working to on this and, importantly, the budget consequences that you think that current development work is looking at, then that would be reassuring to say the least, going forward.
With those questions, I look forward to the answers that you'll be able to give but, again, I would like to put on the record my thanks to everyone who has worked over and above and gone that extra mile to give people peace of mind in what has been a very bleak couple of days.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Andrew R.T. Davies, for those observations and questions. I don't think we can thank the emergency services, local authorities, the volunteers and third sector organisations such as NRW and Dŵr Cymru enough. I think we just need to continue to do that over the coming days and weeks.
You started your questions around the coal tips, and I think you're right, that very visual image of the water coming down in Tylorstown, that was something that, as you say, was played over and over again. The First Minister and I visited Tylorstown last Tuesday—I think it was—to see it for ourselves, and I was very pleased to see that the Rhondda Cynon Taf local authority, who, I think, have been exemplary in their dealings with residents, had gone to great lengths to ensure that they were talking to residents who were obviously concerned when that happened. This is clearly a priority around the ongoing work that needs doing in relation to the coal tips and, as you say, the First Minister met with the Secretary of State yesterday and I understand a further meeting will be convened, I think at an official level, next week. These tips are owned by a variety of organisations, and even some of them are privately owned. So, it is vital that there is that joined-up approach between the Coal Authority, NRW, and local authorities going forward.
In relation to your questions around insurance, I think that was a really good point. I heard you say that you'd listened to the lobby briefing this morning. I went to great pains to say that the representative who attended the flood summit last week from the insurance association, he said that the assessors would be out there as quick as possible. They'd, sort of, doubled up their efforts to make sure that that happened because, I think, certainly in the lobby briefing this morning, journalists were raising with me their concern that insurance companies tried not to pay out if they could, which—that wasn't the understanding that we had from the representative who was there, and that these assessors would go out. In fact, the First Minister and I were at a meeting of RCT's group that they brought together in relation to ongoing work following the floods, and there was an individual there who owned property on the Treforest industrial estate that's been particularly badly affected, and that morning his assessor had been out. So, certainly within 48 hours, the insurance assessor had been out. So, I think that we should pay tribute to those that do that.
You asked for a final figure. I'm afraid you're going to have to be very patient. We are not going to be able to give a final figure as to the entire cost of this for a long time. So, if you just think about RCT, for instance, we know there are several bridges that have been damaged, but it's not safe for divers to go down yet to see what damage is done. So, it is going to be a long process and we are not going to be able to give a final figure. So, you heard me say tens of millions, the First Minister the same, and I heard somebody say £180 million. I haven't heard that specific figure of £180 million, but I can assure you it will be tens of millions of pounds. I was in Mountain Ash with Vikki Howells last week, and just to see the debris alone on the streets that had come off the mountain, it is incredible that nobody was killed. All that is going to take a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of resources.
Around the strategy, I heard you say in your question to the First Minister that two years ago we were promised this. Well, we only closed the consultation in the autumn of last year, and the strategy will set out our strategic direction alongside revised objectives and measures for delivery over the next decade. I do think it's really benefited for that consultation and for the feedback, the workshops, the close working groups that we've had, the work we've done with our stakeholders following the responses, and I will be publishing it later this year.

Leanne Wood AC: I'd like to place on record my thanks to the emergency services, as others have as well, but I also want to pay a special thanks to the community volunteers because, initially, some people saw no-one official at all, and these volunteer teams were a lifeline to people.
I have to say as well that last week was one of the toughest weeks I've had to face as an Assembly Member representing the communities where I grew up. It's been absolutely gut-wrenching to see how the lives of people have been torn apart just over the course of one weekend. I've spoken with many, many people who have been affected, and the initial shock turned to anger quite quickly and frustration about what happened and the lack of support from certain agencies at the events that led up to the flooding, events that, in the eyes of many people, exacerbated the floods. So, on behalf of all of those people, I have some questions for the Minister and for this Government.
Many culverts and rivers became blocked as a result of hundreds of tons of debris left behind after tree felling operations was washed down the mountains. The drainage network stood no chance. This was particularly evident in Pentre, where many streets were flooded by a deluge the town has not seen the likes of. Natural Resources Wales, responsible for tree felling and leaving the material behind, have admitted that the debris contributed to the flood and have pledged to review their policies internally. Minister, this isn't good enough, especially as Pleasant Street in Pentre was flooded for a second time. Now, as the Minister responsible for Natural Resources Wales, will you insist on a full and independent investigation into what happened? And if that investigation deems Natural Resources Wales were liable for the flooding, will you ensure that people are fully reimbursed for the damages, in full, without any consequence to their home or car insurance policies?
In terms of keeping waterways clear, some residents took matters into their own hands—they were forced to because help was not on its way. In Ynyshir, people lowered themselves down underneath a road bridge and used saws to cut into a mass of tree limbs, twigs and muck that had formed a dam and blocked the river below the bridge. This happened in a number of places. So, will concerted efforts be made to ensure that all culverts and waterways are cleared as a matter of urgency?
As part of any review into the floods, will you also look at how other countries cope with flooding in order to learn best practice? The Netherlands has to be an obvious example; people there live below sea level without the problems that we have seen here.
As people attempt to rebuild their lives, help with the cost of utility bills are needed. Once water and muck is swept out, the next stage is to dry out all affected parts of the property, and industrial heaters and dehumidifiers are deployed. But, of course, they're energy intensive and very expensive to run, which means that people could be forced into fuel poverty just by drying out their home. In the absence of a publicly owned energy company in Wales that prioritises people and not profit, like the one Plaid Cymru proposes, will you look at ways in which assistance can be provided to households struggling to cope with the energy cost of dealing with the aftermath of the flooding?
I'm also concerned by the psychological damage the flooding has caused to people, especially, but not exclusively, to children who are often less experienced and therefore less resilient to deal with trauma on this level. The community pulled together in the Rhondda last week to put on a fun day for the children who were affected, which was great, but professional support is needed. Schools are being brilliant, but what additional efforts are being made to ensure that mental health support and counselling is available to children as well as to adults in order to cope with the aftermath of this devastation?
And finally for now, will the Government also look at ensuring that people in Wales have parity with people in England when it comes to flood relief? I note that there's a flood resilience scheme in England that offers up to £5,000 to households to futureproof themselves from flooding. That would be welcome to many, along with what seems to be enhanced support in England for businesses that have been caught up with the floods as well. Can we expect people in Wales to see something similar?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'd like to begin by echoing Leanne Wood's remarks around the community volunteers, and I mentioned volunteers, the third sector and the communities in my statement too. I certainly saw that right across Wales over the last two weeks, and that coming together of communities.
I agree with you, I think last week was one of the toughest weeks I've had as an elected representative, to see the devastation and the trauma, and I don't think 'trauma' is too strong a word to use with people who, as you say, have lost everything. And I repeat again, I think we've been very lucky that nobody was killed. I'm sorry to hear that you came across anger, frustration and blame, because I certainly didn't. Last week, nobody said that word to me; everybody was incredibly grateful. I do appreciate that it's very early days and there is a long way to go. And if your house has had 4 ft of water—. The two streets I was in in Blaenau Gwent, which had never flooded before, they went from six inches to 4 ft of water at 3 o'clock in the morning in 20 minutes. That is so traumatic, and I absolutely would have understood if they were angry with me, but what I got in those streets was, 'Please let me go upstairs and make you and your team a cup of tea, because you're very cold and wet.' So, I didn't come across that. I certainly would understand if I had, but I think people were just incredibly grateful. And you heard the First Minister say in his answers that that was the first thing that they wanted to share—their gratitude for the support and help they received.
In relation to the drainage network, I know, over the weekend—. On the Sunday, I spoke to Andrew Morgan, the leader of RCT, and there were some culverts that they cleared three times. From Friday evening, knowing the storm was coming, they cleared them three times, but, each time, debris was coming off the mountain or from the rivers or from streets. So, we are providing 100 per cent funding for clearance of grids and culverts going forward to assist local authorities to do that very quickly.
You mentioned about learning from other countries, and, of course, best practice should always be shared, and I'd be very happy if any Members have got any examples of best practice, but, certainly, I think we must look at other countries to see how they do it, in the way that other countries are looking, for instance, at coal tips. We are international experts there; we have people from all over the world come to this country to look at that.
Psychological—and you mentioned children specifically, and I know that Delyth Jewell raised that with the Trefnydd in her statement. You will have heard that this is completely a cross-Government response to the flooding, and, obviously, this is an issue that we can take up with the Minister for health and the Minister for Education—they're both here to hear your question around that.
In relation to the cost of energy, clearly this is going to be ongoing as part of the costs going forward. It's not just about infrastructure; it is about such things as for people to get those dehumidifiers in the houses. But this is—. As I say, this is going to be a long-term approach; it could be months before people are able to return to their homes, for instance, so we need to look at that as part of our ongoing response.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, I'm going to concentrate mainly on the disasters that hit Rhondda Cynon Taf, because of the focus and concentration of the deluge, but can I first of all thank you for coming to my constituency? Can I also thank the First Minister for coming and visiting in the immediate aftermath? Can I thank Jeremy Corbyn? Can I thank Adam Price, and the Prince of Wales, who also came to visit? Because those visits are important, because they are an act of solidarity with hard-hit communities. They also uplift morale, and they show that we care and that we are listening. So, I thank all those who actually came to visit—and how well received they were by persons who were cleaning out their houses at the very time that those visits took place—and also reiterate again my thanks to not only the public sector and emergency workers, but the volunteers, many of whom are still, at this very moment, working away, helping within their communities. And a particular thanks to the leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf council, Andrew Morgan, because I think it's been almost universally accepted that the response from RCT almost immediately has been exemplary and has been outstanding and it has been an honour to work with him and his colleagues and with all those public sector workers in Rhondda Cynon Taf.
If I can make a comment also in terms of the scale of the damage, that, as is obvious to so many people, it is those—some of the communities in my constituency, it is some of those who had the least who have lost everything. And how important the grants, the contributions that have been made, the donations that have been made to a fund that myself and the MP Alex Davies-Jones made, which, within a matter of days, had achieved in the region of £30,000, and all the other funds that have been set up to do that.
I spoke with the council leader this morning about the actual scale of the damage—it's important to get this on the record—in Rhondda Cynon Taf. There are nine bridges closed—severe damage to those bridges and they may all need replacing. The council have inspected 199 bridges; there are 32 left to inspect. There are dozens and dozens of collapsed river walls and collapsed, damaged culverts, all of which have to be dealt with.There has been the inspection of 43 category C and D coal tips. There is a considerable list being drawn up in respect of the work needed on highway inspections and highway repairs.
We have in Rhondda Cynon Taf 557 flooded homes—25 per cent of the UK total. We have 500 flood-damaged business properties, and the businesses damaged alone in one area of Treforest, where something like 90 per cent of the businesses were affected, is potentially estimated at around £100 million to £150 million. So, the guesstimate from the council—and it can only be a guesstimate at this stage—is in the region of £30 million to £40 million of damage, but I suspect it is going to be considerably more once those inspections are actually completed, and I know the council leader wanted to put on record the thanks for the support. He has had vehicles and equipment from other local authorities around Wales, and it is that community spirit across Wales that is something that I think, as a country and as a community, we can be so proud of.
Can I just say one thing also, then, in respect of the money that is actually needed? We are not asking for some extra devolution handout. We are part of the United Kingdom, we pay into the United Kingdom. The Prime Minister is the Minister of the union, and it is incumbent on any union to actually help those areas when disaster hits. What is being asked for is no more than any part of the United Kingdom—Wales, England, Scotland or Northern Ireland—could ask for and, in the past, have actually received.
Can I ask for one particular thing that I think does need to be done, and that is, firstly, to assure everybody that Pontypridd is open for business? Because those businesses are up and running, despite some of the damage they still have, and that has been a remarkable effort.Can I thank the Secretary of State for Wales in respect of the fast action in respect of the derogation in respect of the Department of Social Security?
And can I then ask one further thing, and that is: we need to specifically look at specialist advice being given to our communities in respect of the issue of insurance. There are many who have insurance, there are all sorts of games that are being played by the insurance industry—'Is it flood damage? Is it storm damage?' or whatever. The fact of the matter is, I think this is a matter where the Association of British Insurers really need to rein in and take control of the situation, engage with Government and local government, and ensure, firstly, that those people who have insurance are properly compensated under their insurance policies. And then I reiterate everything that the First Minister has said, that is we need to look at the existing arrangements that may be available in terms of insurance and, possibly, how we may even devise and enhance a specific Welsh arrangement, to ensure that our people do not suffer. Thank you, Minister.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Mick. I think the statistics and the numbers that you came forward with demonstrate very clearly that RCT local authority was so severely impacted. I was going to also say I know, through my discussions with Andrew Morgan and atthe summit also, how grateful he was to neighbouring local authorities for their assistance.
Just to pick up on a couple of specific points that you raise—absolutely, Pontypridd is open for business. I think it is so humbling to see the way that businesses get back there. I was in Llanrwst a week last Thursday, following storm Ciara, and the businesses there were clearing out. It was great to see the one shop that was up and running one day ahead of Valentine's Day was the florist—she had all her flowers and her balloons outside, and I thought that was just great, to see that sort of resilience from our businesses, so I'm very happy to put that on record.
In relation to insurance, it's a very, very important point, because I think we need to do more to promote Flood Re. I don't think enough people are aware of it, so people who will have had flood insurance refused—even if that's happened, Flood Re will be able to provide some cover. So, certainly, the discussions that we had with the representative from the association of insurers at the flood submit—that's one area where I think we need to do more. So, for anybody now who is listening, the thing to do, if you don't know about it, is ring your insurance company—the one that you're with now—and ask them to look into that for you.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Mandy Jones AC: I would also like to reiterate and would like to thank all the emergency services and the local villages, on behalf of my party, for the work that they've done over the last few weekends and their continued work on the recovery.
One thing that we can take from the last few weeks is that support from this institution and Welsh Government needs to be reviewed now. Minister, lots of constituents have been e-mailing me about the lack of support from local authorities during the flooding. Will the Welsh Government now review action plans and guidance for flood prevention? Because one thing that we can be sure of is that this sort of rainfall can and will happen again.
Minister, I agree that flood risk management is more than just building higher and stronger defences, but how we provide support, and how support is communicated to residents and businesses must also be improved. I spoke to a number of farmers who wonder if NRW could possibly look at the way flood warnings are communicated to help them, as flooding as had a huge impact on their businesses. You also mentioned future schemes in your statement. Will you please confirm that rural areas will have a scheme to help local authorities in these areas across Wales, please?
In my own village, homes and businesses were flooded when a small stream running through the village actually melded with the flood waters coming down from the mountains. It washed down into the village. The county council—I got in touch with them for the villages previous to that happening, because we could see the water rising—haven't given sandbags to residents for the last few years, Denbighshire County Council, and they really weren't interested, even though I asked for them for the villages, because the water was going into the houses and the local businesses.
My two villages, either side of where I live, were totally cut off. If it wasn't for the locals pulling together, it would have been a lot worse for all the residents there. I've driven those roads since 1986, and I've not seen water like that myself. The gullies this year were cleared earlier, but they soon backfilled due to the rubble and the rocks washing down from the mountain roads.
The River Dee has flooded all the fields up to the main roads between the villages and beyond for the last few years, and a lack of dredging is definitely being blamed for this. Can we please restart river dredging as soon as possible, as this is vital for the smooth water flow depth of our rivers, which will help to alleviate future flooding if done regularly? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think there will be lessons to be learnt from these two storms, but I think we have to accept that—you said you hadn't seen rainfall like it—we had a month's rainfall in less than 24 hours. So, I think we need to remember that.
In relation to future flood prevention and flood alleviation schemes, there are about 25 in the pipeline, and that's right across Wales. It's up to local authorities to come forward with preparatory work around business cases for such schemes. I've got 25 in the pipeline, and just before these two storms, I'd asked for a rapid review of those schemes to see which we could bring forward. It's really important, obviously, that local authorities and NRW have the capacity to be able to deliver these schemes within the year of the funding that is provided.
You were criticising Denbighshire County Council. I suggest you write to them. If you want to copy me into the correspondence, I can share that with them.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I would like to thank the Minister for this update, and also take this opportunity to raise the issue of promised funding for flood victims. We still have a crisis situation in Aberconwy. During storm Ciara, around 10 properties in Betws-y-Coed and 60 in Llanrwst were flooded out, on 9 February. We then had storm Dennis, and I've got to be honest, it was the community rallying around that stopped further devastation there, and the emergency services. But again, this weekend, we saw roads cut off and Llanrwst feeling almost isolated.
Now, you will be aware, Minister, that on 11 February I did ask you what funding would be available to the local authority and residents to assist with the clean-up, and I also wrote to the Minister for Finance for emergency financial support on 14 February. Yet, it took the First Minister until 18 February to announce the creation of an emergency funding relief scheme. And it was only yesterday that you could actually access that. Forms were only available yesterday.
So, you can understand that my residents in Aberconwy feel very frustrated that the First Minister seemed—and I will say seemed, or appeared—to choose to wait until after storm Dennis to take any action. For my—[Interruption.] So, why were the forms only available yesterday? For my constituents, that means they have been waiting over 15 days for any emergency financial assistance. For some without insurance, that is over two weeks without even being able to start to tackle—[Interruption.] You can shout all you want, it's exactly right what's happened.
Only non-chemical cleans have been undertaken on some flooded estates. I've still got children in my constituency having to live upstairs because their homes have just had a jet wash, yet there was sewage mud running through those homes. At least three businesses without insurance have now ceased trading, and others continue to fight for their future. Many constituents have been desperately trying to get hold of any promised financial support.
The community response to their plea, though, has been exceptional. Many of us have been making an effort to be on hand, to help where we can, be that through making representation to the local authority—. And I have to give credit to Conwy County Borough Council for their immense efforts during storm Dennis, to ensure that those already affected weren't affected yet again.
Whilst I am grateful for the fact that all households affected by flooding throughout Wales will technically receive £500, possibly £1,000, for those without house insurance it's just a mere drop in the ocean. I had a resident on the phone to me yesterday, she's lost her business, her home, and her car. She has nothing left, as we speak today.
So, Minister, why did it take until after storm Dennis for the First Minister to announce financial support to individuals affected by storm Ciara? Can consideration be given to increasing the amount of financial support available in exceptional circumstances? What emergency support will be available to our flood-hit farms, which saw losses of livestock? No mention of that in your statement. And will money be available to help undo damage to our listed, precious, historical buildings? And you know where I'm going with this: Gwydir castle and gardens. The unfairness caused to them is immense.
It is well known that I want to see an independent inquiry into flood mitigation measures in Aberconwy, because we were flooded out in December 2015, March last year, storm Ciara, and more effects from storm Dennis. Your Welsh Government—. You said in your question response to me, 'No further reviews'. People in Llanrwst feel that you are not interested, Minister. [Interruption.] I've asked four questions.
I now ask: will you work with Natural Resources Wales to reassess previously proposed and rejected options? And I endorse what Mandy Jones has said over there: people believe that the River Conwy, now recording at its highest levels, should actually have an implemented flood risk mitigation scheme in terms of dredging, or some form of support for that river. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I really object to Janet Finch-Saunders's tone. I was in Llanrwst on 13 February—[Interruption.] Do you want to listen or not? Do you want to listen? I really object. I was in Llanrwst on 13 February, visiting houses in your constituency, and I spoke to many of the residents. Not one of them took the tone that you did—not one of them. So, I will tell you why it takes several days—and that's all it's been, several days—to set up—[Interruption.]

Will you let the Minister speak? I have 10 more speakers after this, and we've 20 minutes, so not all 10 are going to get in. Minister.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'll tell you why it takes several days to set up a scheme: it's public money. And that public money has to be accounted for. It has to be audited. You have to have a mechanism to be able to deliver that funding. Do you want to listen or not? So, every house that's had internal flooding—. You can smirk, Janet Finch-Saunders; I'm not even going to look at you, because you—. In fact, Deputy Presiding Officer, I don't think she's worthy of an answer.

Okay, fine. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you, Minister. I'd like to repeat again the thanks made by many Members across this Chamber for the effort made by countless heroes to help those affected by recent flooding, and to repeat also my thanks to you for visiting businesses and residents in Mountain Ash with me last week. The visible leadership from yourself and the First Minister was welcome.
My questions. I hope you will have seen the letter jointly sent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by representatives of RCT, and I note your comments about working with the UK Government. Will you make representations to ensure that RCT gets the help that it needs, where there is a duty on the UK Government, such as funding for infrastructure, council tax and rate relief exemption?
I also note your comments about Flood Re and I think it's really important, as other Members have said and yourself, to make sure that people know how they can access that affordable insurance. But I am concerned about a lack of clarity in this area. I've met with a number of people who have been very, very distressed to discover that they are underinsured against flood damage. So, I'd like to ask particularly what we can do to make sure that that information is clear and that insurance companies are forced to make that information a lot more clear than it is now?
And finally, I'd like to close by again reiterating the comments made by other Members in this Chamber about the need for support for the emotional impact of flooding as well. Financial support to help people rebuild their lives is really important, but those long term psychological scars will come to the fore over time. I've met with people in Ynysybwl who were hit by a seven foot wave of water rushing through their properties. So, just to place on record, please, my ask for some assistance with counselling services for those who require it.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think most of the points that Vikki Howells raises, outside what other Members have raised, are really about the cross-Government approach that we're taking in relation to the flooding. So, you'll be aware my colleague, the Minister for Finance, has written to the Treasury regarding this. Obviously, the First Minister has had discussions around funding, because—I think that Mick Antoniw raised the point—it's not a devolution handout. This is money that we need and it's money that we should have from the UK Government.
And it's the same around the emotional impact. I answered Leanne Wood before that, obviously, the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Minister for Education will ensure that that support is available as we go along the next weeks and months and even years. Because I think you're right; the majority, particularly around storm Dennis, and storm Ciara too, happened in the night. I always things are much worse in the dark and in the night and to go—as I say, the houses I visited in Blaenau Gwent—from six inches of water to four foot of water in just 20 minutes is incredibly frightening. The same: I visited Crickhowellin the constituency of Kirsty Williams on Thursday, and again it was in the night that they obviously had this huge surge of water in their homes.
I think that you make a very pertinent point around insurance and about ensuring that people have got adequate cover. Flood Re is available for domestic. It's not available for businesses, but it is available for domestic. And I think there is a point around it perhaps being made available for businesses, and this is an issue for the UK Government, but it is something that I will be writing to the appropriate Minister about.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I endorse the thanks and the tributes that have been paid to the emergency workers, council workers, NRW workers, volunteers and the communities that have come together in light of the exceptional pictures that we have seen over the past few weeks?
May I ask first of all, Minister, how do you respond to two north Wales council leaders, in Denbighshire and Conwy, who have criticised the pace of the Government's response? There was no talk of a £500 payment for the residents affected in Llanrwst, in Llanfair Talhaiarn and so on and so forth. But of course, after the events in RCT, there was a major announcement that funding was to be made available. There was to be an initial £10 million and there would be more available later. I know the scale is different, but we must bear in mind that over 100 homes were affected in north Wales, and many tens of businesses too. So, how do you respond to the suggestion that the Government didn't respond as they should have done to the situation in north Wales until the events unfolded in south Wales?
The council in RCT is offering an additional £500. Some comments have been made, too, that regret the fact that Conwy council isn't offering an additional £500 payment to residents affected in places such as Llanrwst, and I would like to hear from you. Because the damage is the same and the impact is the same in terms of these floods, wherever you live. But it’s starting to look as if there was some kind of postcode lottery: if you live in the Rhondda, you'll have an additional £500, but if you live in Conwy, you won't. I would like to know: isn't consistency important? Isn't fairness important? And shouldn't there be equality of access to support, wherever you live? Isn't that important? I'd like to hear your response to that.
I've raised with you in committee, in this place and in other fora, some concerns about the resources available to NRW and the additional responsibilities placed upon them whilst their resources are shrinking. Now, there will be additional work emerging in response to what has happened, not only the direct response in dealing with the impacts, but there will be additional assessments to infrastructure and there may be public inquiries that may need to be led or contributed to. So will you commit, therefore, to ensuring that, if there is any additional work in light of this that falls on NRW that they will receive the necessary resource to deal with that?
It’s not just NRW; local authorities are in the same situation and, of course, there’s a wider range of bodies that we don't always mention: the North and Mid Wales Trunk Road Agent, which is responsible for gulleys through Llanrwst, for example—and I see the Minister starting to listen now, having heard reference to that. We do need clarity that this whole range of relevant bodies have the necessary resources. While it is necessary to focus on the bigger picture and the major infrastructure schemes, we must bear in mind that it’s the day-to-day work, the spade work, quite literally, that is also important in terms of cleaning culverts, gulleys, and so on and so forth. So I want to know what assessment you as a Government will now make to ensure that this range of bodies has the necessary capacity for that spade work, and I would like to hear from you on that.
There are a number of points on the planning system that would be better referred to the relevant Minister, and there will be an opportunity to do that on a future date, but a response to those three or four questions would be something I would be grateful for.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. You make a very important point about transport and roads and I think, again, we should place on record our sincere thanks to staff across the entire transport sector for those of us from north Wales who've had to come down again this week. It was equally as bad as last week, but I know they have been working tirelessly since the flooding began nearly two weeks ago to support the travelling public and to make sure we reopen our public transport and road network as quickly as possible.
You ask again about the public money that was being made available, so I mentioned that I visited Llanrwst on the Thursday; I was in my constituency on the Friday. I did try to get down to Cardiff on the Saturday when we realised the impact of storm Dennis, and I was unable to because of the train network. I'd already started to have conversations with the First Minister around what support we could give to people who had been flooded, and as I said in my answer to Janet Finch-Saunders, it does take a while to set up that scheme, but what the First Minister did straight away—but this wasn't made public, because obviously, you're doing it collectively as a Government—was that we identified the money. So, the First Minister, in the first meeting that I had with him on the Monday morning—he was adamant that that money would be found. We then found the mechanism to make sure that that money got out as quickly as possible to the public, so it opened yesterday. It did take a few days, but as I say, you've got to make sure that public money can be accounted for in the correct way.
The fact that RCT local authority are giving their residents an additional £500 is a matter for RCT. If Conwy Council choose not to do that, that's up to them. You know that the budget that local authorities get—it's up to them how they spend it with their local population, so you need to take that matter up with Conwy and Denbighshire. The money that we're giving as a Welsh Government will be the same. For a house that's been flooded, it will be £500. For a house that's been flooded that doesn't have insurance, it will be £1,000. There's also business funding available through—and people should contact—Business Wales. There was an earlier question around farms: they are businesses, and I have to say, most of the farmers I've spoken to have got insurance, but clearly, they are just as ableto access that funding as a business as any other type of business. I mentioned in an earlier answer that we will be giving 100 per cent funding for clearing culverts and grids.
In relation to your questions around NRW, there are clearly lots of questions around NRW and what they have had to deal with over the last two weeks. I'm meeting with the Chair and the chief exec—I think it's next week—and obviously, this will be top of the agenda. But, what I have said to them is—. I've asked the specific question: do they have the resources—and that's human as well as financial resources—to be able to deal with that? So, I can give you a commitment that I will clearly look at anything that comes forward from them. But, again, I think that it's a little bit early to answer that question in detail.

Thank you. I have seven speakers and eight minutes left. So, please can I now just ask the remaining speakers: will they just ask a question of the Minister, rather than—? I know that we all want to put our thanks on record from our particular areas, but I think that it's been well documented, so if we could have some questions straight to the Minister. Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, I'm going to raise a question that I have raised with you a number of times before, and that is about the management of Clywedog and Lake Vyrnwy reservoirs. Pictures show on social media, and video footage, great swathes of mid Wales underwater, including B roads and trunk roads and properties partly underwater as well. I have no doubt that, even if those reservoirs were managed in a way that I would like to see them managed and the people of mid-Wales want to see them managed, we would still see significant disruption because of the sheer level of rain that fell in such a short period of time. But, I also have no doubt that if those reservoirs were managed better, we would see significantly less reduction.
What we do see, for days on end, is water tipping over the top of both reservoirs. Common sense tells you that you have lost control of the reservoir when that is the case. We need a greater drawdown of water, I would suggest, during dry periods of weather on both reservoirs. I know that you are aware of the section 20 operating rules; I think that they urgently need to be reviewed. I accept that this isn't your responsibility alone; it is jointly between yourself, Natural Resources Wales, the Environment Agency and the water companies—I fully accept that. But, can I ask you to lead on meetings with some urgency to get this operating rule reviewed and changed, and ask that you and your officers lead on that particular area?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I suppose that the short answer is 'yes'. I'll be very happy to look at that, and perhaps I can update the Member in due course.

Hefin David AC: I'd like to pay tribute to those communities most affected in my constituency, which is Machen, Bedwas, Llanbradach, Ystrad Mynach, Tredomen, Nelson and Penpedairheol; those with commercial businesses and residential businesses. Bedwas RFC's Bridge club was hugely affected and has benefited from crowdfunding. It is struggling to survive, it has to be said, at this point in time, and I'm doing all that I can to help them.
On Thursday 20 February, Caerphilly County Borough Council announced a £250,000 fund to support businesses and residents in the Caerphilly community. I have to say that Caerphilly council have been working 24/7 through this process, and I have praise for them. Can she confirm that the Welsh Government's funding is entirely separate to that, and any application will be looked upon separately to any application to the Caerphilly County Borough Council fund?
The only other question that I've got—. I've had an e-mail today from a resident who tried to apply for the Welsh Government's fund through the link I sent them to the council. She followed the link that I sent, and said that, upon ringing the number, she went through to the council switchboard, who said that they didn't know about the Welsh Government's part of it, and tried to direct them to the discretionary assistance payment. So, if any of your civil servants are listening at this point in time, please could they ensure that local authorities are well aware of the mechanism for drawing down Welsh Government funding? Caerphilly council: I've written to the chief executive and the leader to explain this difficulty. But, the sooner that that is resolved, the better.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I can confirm that the Welsh Government funding is entirely separate to anything that Caerphilly council want to do in the same way that RCT are doing also. I'm concerned to hear your last point. As soon as I finish my statement, I will go upstairs and make sure that that is corrected as quickly as possible. Obviously, it's the discretionary assistance fund that's doing the scheme for us. I know that, just last week, they had 200 applications for the ordinary DAF funding, and I think that they gave out significant funding. It's either £50 or £100. So, those two schemes are entirely separate as well. But, Deputy Presiding Officer, I will go upstairs and do that, and hopefully, by the time I come back down I will be able to give Hefin David an answer.

David Melding AC: Can I extend my sympathies to all those affected in South Wales Central by this most distressful event and the experiences that followed of seeing your homes flooded? It's the speed at which it happens—I think you've referred to that. It is astonishing. In my 21 years in the Chamber, when I've talked to flood victims, speed is what they say, which means we need the most effective warning systems possible.
Can I praise the joint work between the Welsh Government and the UK Government? I know there have been a few things flying about the Chamber today, but actually, both sides seem to have co-operated very well, and you need to continue this. I do commend the fact that the Secretary of State, Simon Hart, did visit RCT on Friday.
My main point is that we do need, because of climate change, to look at the whole hydrology of the south Wales catchment area. We have very fast-moving rivers. They're short. The energy they possess is astonishing, and quite frankly, some of the culverts are not fit for purpose for the speed of the water flow. We need to look at these water courses and examine them in the whole system, about what can be done to deepen them and strengthen them and move that water away from the areas at most risk around businesses and homes.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Yes, I think that last point is very important. I mentioned in an earlier answer that, on the Sunday, I spoke to Andrew Morgan, the leader of RCT, and he sent me some photographs of a culvert that had been cleared out three times. It was completely destroyed because of the speed of the water, to which you refer. There's a massive infrastructure operation that's going to have to take place over the coming months and years, probably.
But clearly, some things are more urgent than others, and as we work through—as each local authority goes through the clean-up operation and comes back with what's required, that's when we need to look at specific and individual things that need repairing immediately, and what needs to be done in the longer term.

Neil Hamilton AC: I think all my exchanges with the Minister in the last four years about flooding have involved coastal flooding. I wonder if she would agree with me that we now need to give much greater attention and priority to dealing with the consequences of inland flooding as well. Nobody could fail to have been impressed by Mick Antoniw's tale of woe in RCT earlier on, and I very much agree with what he said and what the First Minister said earlier on—that it's very much a responsibility of the UK Government to make a proper contribution towards alleviating the problems that have now been created. It is part of the price that we pay, if there is a price at all, for being part of the United Kingdom, and that's the way in which we can help to cement the various parts of it together.
Chris Bryant said yesterday in the House of Commons that many of his constituents have to choose between putting food on the table or paying for insurance against disasters of this kind, and I'm sure the Minister would agree with me that that's not really an acceptable situation for people to be in in the twenty-first century in one of the richest countries in the world. What's happened here is a humanitarian disaster equally as much as the kind of flood damage that we see in other parts of the world, for which our overseas aid budget is designed to cope. Only 14 per cent of that overseas aid budget actually goes towards distress relief of this kind. So I wonder if she'd agree with me that, if the British Government comes up with the old excuse that they haven't got enough money to give us, the poorest part of the United Kingdom, in the one of the poorest areas within Wales, the money that is needed to help to alleviate significantly these difficulties, then that budget, which is currently earmarked for various absurd projects like a £6 million project to persuade Chinese housewives to put less salt in their cooking, which is funded by the Department for International Development, that money should be diverted to Wales—and indeed for future occasions of this kind—so that we are not put in a position where we are scrabbling around for the cash that is needed to sort out as quickly as possible the very, very real problems that ordinary people are now suffering.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I don't have the inside knowledge that Neil Hamilton seems to have of the workings and the way DfID gives out money, but what I do know is exactly what Chris Bryant said. There are lots of reasons why people don't have insurance, and when I was visiting people last week, we discussed some of those reasons. Some of them were because they'd been flooded before and they couldn't get insurance. Others were—the cost was a barrier. Clearly, we need to ensure that people can access affordable insurance.
Before I go on to the next questions, Deputy Presiding Officer, officials have just e-mailed Ken Skates in response to the question raised by Hefin David, to say the link is correct—it's an extension of the discretionary assistance fund. So, perhaps, if you can get that message back. And again, if there are any further difficulties, I'd be very happy to look into them.

Thank you. I have three speakers left. As long as they promise me they have a question, just one question each, then we'll get through them. Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think it's important for me just to place on record my sympathy for the residents of my constituency, where we didn't see flooding on anything like the scale of Rhondda Cynon Taf, but we did see flooding in Troedyrhiw, Pentrebach, Aberfan, Quakers Yard, Pontsticill, Heolgerrig, Tir-Phil and Deri, and that was not insignificant for those individuals affected, as I'm sure you'll appreciate.
Most of the questions and the points that I wanted to raise, Minister, have now been raised, but there's one thing that I wanted to pick up. You will appreciate that landslides in my constituency have a very deep and painful history, and you have talked about the work being done on coal tips, and I appreciate that entirely. But I had a whole community in Troedyrhiw that were evacuated because of landslips in Troedyrhiw, but they were not actually to do with coal tips; it was literally the topography of the valley. There are very steep hills that are running right the way through our valleys—some of which are not related to coal tips. But those hills, those mountain sides, were so saturated, and they have streams and rivers running through them, that they couldn't cope with the amount of water coming through and they slipped, and we had to evacuate a number of streets in Troedyrhiw. So, my question to you, Minister, is, over and above what's being done around coal tips, what can we be doing to look at the general topography and stability of the hillsides, because this isn't going to be one-off? This is going to happen again, and we need to find some way of making sure that those steep hillsides are as secure as they can be when those heavy rains come again.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Dawn Bowden. I mentioned in my earlier answer—I'm not sure if it was to Vikki or to somebody else—but around when I was in Mountain Ash with Vikki Howells, and to see the size of the boulders that had come down from the mountain was truly horrific. So, clearly, it was the culmination of—. We've had probably one of the wettest winters that we've had for a long time and a wet autumn as well. So, we need to be looking at this issue alongside everything else, because I'm very well aware that there have been landslips, as you say, not in relation to the spoil tips to which you originally referred.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for this statement. May I ask the Minister a question on contingency planning for flooding by the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales? Last week, I was contacted by a group based in the London Borough of Brent that provides assistance in emergency situations, such as those who lost homes in the fire at Grenfell Tower. They offered to provide a large amount of aid to flooding victims in south-east Wales in the form of food, blankets, cleaning material and other household essentials. Unfortunately, having contacted many community centres, I could not find any place and no venue whatsoever large enough that was available to store the amount of aid offered to us. Please, Minister, if such floods occur in future, could consideration be given to establishing a central point where aid can be delivered before being passed on to the flood victims? And two more questions: co-ordination among the local existing county councils; and, finally, the media must be active to make sure there is a flood-victim support website there straight away to help the people in the country. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, that certainly wasn't my experience. I mentioned in my statement about Llanhilleth Miners Institute in Blaenau Gwent, where people were just continually coming with donations. And I saw it elsewhere, in Mountain Ash—we visited a community hub in Vikki Howells's constituency where a local supermarket had come with mops and bleach and disinfectant. So, that is not my experience of it at all, unfortunately. So, I don't think I can really add anything else.

Thank you. And finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you. As a person who has lived through a personal flood experience in the Towyn floods 30 years ago this week, my heart goes out to each and every person that's seen the devastation of flooding in their homes and businesses over the past fortnight with storm Ciara and storm Dennis. I also know that it brings out the best in people as well, and I know that each one of us that's visited a community in recent weeks will have the seen the way that communities have pulled together and grown together through the terrible experiences that they have had.
Imagine, then, being in a situation, as some of my residents are in the community of Llanfair Talhaearn, which has been impacted by flooding three times in the past eight years. Three times in the past eight years, having the builders in, ripping everything out, trying to put everything back together and to piece your life together. It has just been absolutely horrific. And I would ask you, Minister: can you ensure that communities like Llanfair TH, like Llanrwst and others, which have been impacted frequently in recent years by flooding, are given that little bit extra priority because I think that they need it and they deserve it? That's not taking away from the awful impact of floods elsewhere, which also need attention, but, clearly, there's something seriously wrong when a community that is told that it has a flood risk of about one in every 50 years has been hit three times in eight. There's something not right with the modelling, which needs to be addressed.
You also referred, Minister, earlier on, and I think Llyr Gruffydd referred to this, to the capacity of certain councils to be able to respond through additional assistance and support in the same way that Rhondda Cynon Taf has been able to, with financial payments to those who've been without insurance, and perhaps even those who've had some insurance. Conwy County Borough Council, as you will know, has one of the lowest settlements this year with its revenue support grant, and it doesn't have the capacity in the same way that some of these other local authorities have to be able to support residents in its communities that have been impacted by flooding. Can I ask what support you might make available to councils with significant financial pressures, like Conwy, in order that it can respond perhaps in a different way to the challenges that residents in that community are facing?
And finally, one of the near misses that we had during the recent storms was on the coast in Kinmel Bay, in the community of Sandy Cove. As I said at the opening of my remarks on this statement, it was 30 years ago this week that that community suffered the devastating Towyn floods, along with other communities along the north Wales coast, as often the Deputy Presiding Officer is only too keen to remind me. But, clearly, having a near miss in a community that suffered such devastation in the past is also a concern. So, what support can you make available as rapidly as possible for communities on the coast in Towyn and Kinmel Bay to ensure that their flood defences are also robust and up-to-scratch, so that they can avoid the sort of devastation that people in RCT and elsewhere have suffered in recent weeks?

Lesley Griffiths AC: As a north Walian, I very well remember and actually visiting Towyn 30 years ago; it's incredible to think it's that long ago, it was so devastating. You're right; the people I met in Blaenau Gwent, it was the first time these two streets had been flooded. It was a manhole coming off that had caused the flooding there—they'd never been flooded before—but the complete devastation and the fact that the water went from six inches to four foot in 20 minutes can tell you just how traumatic an experience that was.
In relation to Llanfair TH, when I was in Llanrwst I obviously met with Conwy council and talked about what we could do there and, obviously, NRW are delivering a flood scheme there. I've asked for it to be expedited, so that is in relation to Llanfair TH.I think I've answered this already; I've already asked for a rapid review of the schemes that are currently in the pipeline to see again what we can accelerate there.
In relation to local authorities, it's a matter for a local authority how they spend their funding. RCT have chosen to do what they have chosen to do. It's up to Conwy—and Denbighshire was in my earlier answer to Llyr Huws Gruffydd—if they want to give funding. They all have reserves for a rainy day; well, you don't get much rainier than this, do you? So, if they choose to give their funding in that way, that's up to them.
And, again, about the—. We've had a lot of near misses. I mean, our flood alleviation schemes right across Wales stood up, but some by literally centimetres, and I'm thankful for that, obviously, but, again, we need to go back, I think, and revisit those schemes to see what more we need to do because, clearly, if we'd been working to one-in-a-hundred-years events and you mentioned three in eight years, I'm not saying that was a flood scheme, but we need to look to make sure our flood alleviation schemes right across Wales are up for the job. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board Update

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon has been postponed until 3 March.

5. Statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government: Re-imagining social house building in Wales—A modern methods of construction strategy for Wales

So, item 5 is a statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government: re-imagining social house building in Wales—a modern methods of construction strategy for Wales. There we go. So, I'll call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to move the statement. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to provide Members with an update on Welsh Government's modern methods of construction strategy, 'Re-imagining social house building in Wales', and how it will support our ambition to deliver more high-quality social and affordable homes across Wales.
Unlike other parts of the UK, this Government has continued to invest in affordable housing, providing £2 billion-worth of funding in this term of office, but we want to build more and we want to build better. Welsh social homes will be built to high space and beauty standards, embrace sound place-making principles, and, of course, be near-zero carbon in terms of emissions. Producing homes using modern methods of construction will play a vital role in making this happen.
The strategy I share with you today was produced in response to recommendations following the affordable housing supply review, which identified modern methods of construction, or MMC as it is known, as a way of more quickly increasing housing supply. Over the past year, we engaged with a range of key stakeholders and leading experts in the housing sector, construction industry and academia to co-produce and test the approach of our MMC strategy. We received overwhelming support for our proposed direction and I would like to thank everyone who contributed. Your invaluable input has helped ensure that our strategy is robust, well-supported and gives us the best chance of maximising the opportunity MMC presents for social house building and for our economy in Wales.
Although still in its infancy, there is recognition in Wales and across the UK that use of MMC can help us build better quality homes faster than traditional methods to meet housing need. We see MMC as an umbrella term that includes various construction methods, from new materials and technologies to off-site manufacturing, which either replace or complement traditional methods of construction.
Whilst some types of MMC may be more advanced than others, what is clear is that innovation in this field has advanced in leaps and bounds over the years. We have certainly moved from pre-fab to ab-fab. Gone are the days of association with poor-quality, temporary pre-fabricated housing; MMC now produces high-quality, desirable and energy-efficient affordable homes that tenants can be proud of.
Our approach to MMC aligns directly with other recommendations of the affordable housing review. It will support councils to build at scale and pace. Our grant system will ensure MMC schemes are not disadvantaged compared to traditional ones, and proposed new space standards ensure traditional and MMC buildings are treated with parity.
We recognise the need to cultivate a consistent approach to MMC adoption with our neighbours. This includes aligning to the UK-wide approach to warranties and accreditation of MMC homes to bolster lender and consumer confidence and utilising recognised definitions.
MMC opportunities go beyond house building. The strategy supports our ambitions to move to a circular economy, as building with MMC could reduce construction waste by as much as 70 to 90 per cent. Reducing emissions from the housing sector is a key element of our climate change emergency mitigation.
We are exploring how best to identify the new skills required to accommodate greater use of MMC, which represents a sea change in the construction industry. We need to ensure that the existing construction workforce is upskilled to meet our ambitions, attract new and diverse entrants and marginalised groups such as offenders, to explore employment and training opportunities.
Our plans provide real opportunity for Welsh MMC producers, many of which are SMEs and family-run, supporting Welsh businesses in finding a home-grown solution and strengthening Welsh suppliers. Linked to this is the longer term use of Welsh timber in house building.
As part of this approach, we have commenced an exercise to engage with all Welsh MMC providers to understand their capability, expertise and contribution to our social housing goals in Wales. We are fortunate to have a wealth of experienced MMC producers in Wales already supplying high-quality products to homes and commercial developments across the UK. The combination of their product, experienced workforce and indigenous supply chain means they are ideally placed and ready to respond to the increase in demand for MMC homes.We want to support these businesses to reap the rewards of increased order books and harness the economic and social benefits increased MMC production brings. Welsh Government wants to drive forward the use of MMC in social housing, and next month we are hosting a summit to bring together MMC producers and social landlords across Wales in order to share knowledge and broker new relationships and opportunities.
In many ways, we are already ahead of the game due to the success of our £90 million innovative housing programme that includes a number of MMC projects that are already under way. Nonetheless, to further accelerate the programme, I am making £20 million available for MMC businesses, who, in partnership with Welsh social landlords, want to build the next generation of social housing.I am making a further £25 million available for IHP round 4, focused on an MMC special.
Translating the strategy into tangible benefits is not solely about financial investment. Over the coming months, we will shape these aims into an implementation plan that will provide more detail on how we deliver the objectives of the MMC strategy. I will provide an update for Members before summer recess, but work has already begun in earnest. Greater adoption of MMC presents some challenges, however these are not insurmountable, and I am confident that we have identified the right approach and partners to work with to address them. Our strategy keeps us at the vanguard of new and innovative developments, ensuring that social housing leads the way in driving up standards for all housing in Wales. Diolch.

David Melding AC: Can I welcome this statement on modern methods of construction—MMC hereafter? The Welsh Conservative Party throughout this Assembly term has promoted this type of construction, and in our White Papers on urban design and on housing, we promoted the concept of greater use of MMC. It is becoming a preferred route rather than one driven by necessity or scarcity, as it has in the past. It's actually, as you've said, at the cutting edge of modern house building. So, it's really something that we need to focus on, and I do think, as you said, it's giving opportunities for SMEs and other firms to take this up. I've also visited a plant—the one I visited was in Pyle; I think you visited one in Neath—but it's important to see the opportunities that are there, and as you've said, it offers particular advantages and opportunities for the Welsh timber industry long term.
I think MMC does require training and upskilling, but this can also mean a more attractive career option—for one, most of your work is done indoors. I think the downside on this—and it will attract people who want the more highly skilled careers because of the nature of the work that is involved—as the Association of British Insurers have pointed out, great precision is needed, both in the manufacture and then on the on-site construction of MMC homes, or a lot of the advantages, particularly on energy efficiency and then in any repair work that's done in the course of the houses' lives—we can lose an awful lot of the advantages. So, there are real issues about training.
I've just got a couple of questions because, as I said, I think we're very much on the same page here. By my calculation, the Minister is announcing an investment of £45 million in MMC, but can she confirm this, please? I don't think there's any overlap between the £20 million that you're making available for MMC businesses and then the further tranche of the innovative housing programme round 4, which will be an 'MMC special', as you so vividly put it. But can you just confirm that?
As far as the strategy that is being rolled out, I look forward to the further statement in the summer term. Can you assure us that you have been working with—as well as the manufacturers and other stakeholders—the Association of British Insurers? Because they welcome this form of construction, but they are aware of the insurance risks if it's not done in a full and proper way. And you may have seen their note that they've put out to Members today, and I do think it's not just a case of special pleading; they're making very substantial points, which I think we should apply all due diligence to. But I conclude by welcoming the statement.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much for those remarks, David Melding. On the insurance point, I made the point very briefly in the statement that we are co-operating with a UK-wide series of special interest groups, insurers being one of them, because it's actually very importantso that people can get mortgages and get the warranties right. And there's a big issue with the International Organization for Standardization standards and needing to update them for modern methods of construction. So, some of the ISO standards were made back in the 1970s, when these things just did not exist. And, actually, the carbon-neutral elements of this often don't comply with the ISO standards, for all sorts of very good reasons. So, there's quite a bit of work to do, which is why there'll be an implementation strategy to follow around what we need to do to ensure that we're on the right page for all of that, and, quite clearly, we'll want people to be able to work across the UK—and, in fact, across Europe and so on—from a Welsh manufacturing base. And so it's very important to make sure that we get the standards that are right for the sector. So, I don't disagree with any of that.
I take the point about the precision in assembly and construction, but one of the things I was really struck by when I visited Hale Construction in Jeremy Miles's constituency yesterday—I've visited a number of these factories and it's the same in all of them—was that, actually, of course, there's much closer supervision of each section of the construction as it goes along. And, unfortunately, we've seen, with traditional methods of construction and all of the fire risks that we've discussed many times in this Chamber, that actually that oversight is not there on the traditional building site—for all kinds of perfectly good reasons, but it isn't there—and so, actually, there have been a lot of subsequent faults discovered, whereas this process actually highlights them straight away. We were shown yesterday the injection of the insulation into a panel, for example, where it's quite obvious that doing it indoors, in the dry, with an injection system, gets every single crevice out of it and all the air and everything else, whereas that's not the case when you do it on-site with an injection system. So, it has lots of advantages. There are a couple of disadvantages, though, that's for sure.
The other thing is that yesterday morning it was pouring with rain, and there were—. It was incredibly awful weather, as we've been hearing in the earlier part of business this afternoon, and the factory was in full production. And I had passed several construction sites on the way to the visit, which I know have social housing being built on them, which were all on stop, because the weather was appalling and nothing could happen. But this factory was in absolute full production, and all of its staff members were in the warm and dry and they were carrying on as normal. So, actually, that's no small thing in a climate emergency and a country like ours. It was also demonstrated to us yesterday that a large part of the construction is watertight immediately. So, even if you're assembling it on-site, it's still waterproof—the panels are waterproof and so on. So, there are lots of benefits for a place like ours.
And the last thing I want to just welcome your saying is the opportunity for the Welsh timber industry, because I think this is an important point in terms of the flooding problem that we had earlier. Obviously we need to plant a lot more trees—trees take up water; we need to plant them at the top of watercourses and so on. They take up water, they stop a lot of these flood events, they hold soil in place, they stop mountains from moving and so on. But you can also crop those trees, because, if you do it properly, you're not clear cropping—what you're doing is selectively cropping species of tree out of an existing forest, and not affecting run-off and soil erosion and so on. We just need to get a lot cleverer about the way that we use our forests so that they stay being forests, but are also a renewable crop for our Welsh timber industry. That would support very many more people off those acres of land than are currently supported.

Delyth Jewell AC: There has been a consensus in this Chamber that we need to substantially increase the amount of affordable housing, although there has been less of a consensus on whether it's fair to class homes sold for over £150,000 through Help to Buy as affordable. For that reason, Plaid Cymru has preferred to specifically use the term 'social housing' when talking about our own targets for house building, and that is, of course, where the main problem regarding supply is. So, we welcome this strategy as a step in the right direction, and we agree that prefab housing of the sort that's been highlighted in the media today can be a useful part of providing that, with the usual caveats about quality control and so on.
So, I just have a couple of questions for you, Minister. Firstly, are you in a position to give us some figures in terms of the numbers you want to see delivered? Now, the media reports, of course, use the 20,000 affordable homes figure, but we know that target includes homes that, in reality, are unaffordable, as we've discussed before, and that doesn't have a specific target for social housing. So, if you could give us an indication about how much social housing you'd want to see delivered through this, that would be helpful. And, secondly, currently the planning system already struggles to get the level of affordable housing it should through developments. Sometimes, this is because developers rely on the planning inspector to water down affordable housing commitments to guarantee that a development remains profitable, and that's something that no other industry has, and something that we really should reflect on. But at other times, it's simply because planning departments don't negotiate well, or they accept cash payments that are inadequate. I'm aware of one development where the cash payments amounted to around £50,000 per home they alleged to be able to build, which is clearly inadequate.
Now, of course, one advantage of prefab housing is that the cost per unit is substantially reduced, but, clearly, what we don't want is developers taking advantage of that and reducing their cash payments accordingly. So, instead, Minister, will you strengthen the planning system to actually require more affordable homes within developments to reflect the fact that it will cost less?

Julie James AC: Those are two very good points. There isn't a target for this at the moment, because we're still running through the innovative housing programme stats. The whole point of the innovative housing programme is to test out what the manufacturers are claiming for the houses, and make sure that they actually deliver what they claim. So, all of them will tell you that they reduce bills by any number of hundreds of pounds and that the cost of building them is lower and all the rest of it, but they're all very new and innovative projects. So, what we're doing is we're monitoring them over the years of the project, so those that are in year 1, for example, of the three years of monitoring.
The truth is that many of them have done what they said they would do, but some of them haven't. And so what we're trying to do is make sure that we roll out at scale the ones that do do what they say, and the others are given an opportunity to figure out what went wrong and correct it and put that in place. So, I'm not prepared to put a target on that, because we want to get it right. It's important to get it right as well.
In terms of the planning system, which is not today's strategy, but is obviously a related point, we are working very hard with local authorities and registered social landlords to get some pre-approved planning in place. Shortly, I'll be announcing some self-build schemes that we'relooking at as well, where, basically, what we're saying is the local authority will put the planning in place before the land goes out, and then they'll be looking for partner developers or RSLs to develop the land. So, that takes that problem away. That's a related strategy, it's not this strategy today.
And the second thing is: you'll know, you've heard me talk in this Chamber a lot about moving that kind of planning to the strategic planning level at a regional point, and that's to do two things. That's to make sure that we spread the rare expertise around, so that authorities that are negotiating with the private sector for big pieces of land have access to proper expertise, because often that will be the only one they have ever done, and they'll skill themselves up and then lose it again—so, to share that expertise around in local authorities is really important. Also, it will enable them to put the strategic infrastructure plan in place, so that when a private sector builder comes forward, they will know what infrastructure they are expected to contribute to, as opposed to a random amount of money based on the affordability of the scheme in question. So, there are lots of other things to do.
What this is doing, though, is it's allowing us to build much more quickly the sorts of houses that people want to live in. I'll just share with you one story from—from Ammanford, actually, where I met Mr and Mrs Potter. You may have seen a little video online from Mr and Mrs Potter, who were ecstatic with the house that they were living in, developed by Coastal, a registered social landlord. Mrs Potter said this to me, and it's really stuck with me, 'We saw the old garage being knocked down and the houses going up and we thought, "Oh, another posh development for posh people. I'm still living in this terrible flat that I've been allocated and my son has got all kinds of problems".' And then she said, 'Somebody rang the doorbell from the RSL and said, "Would you like to come and look at the house we're thinking of allocating to you?",and they took me to this posh development that I had been slagging off in the local shop as not for the likes of us, and here we are, living in it.'
That's the point, that these are the best houses in Wales, not the worst. They're the ones that most people want to live in. They're houses of choice, not houses of necessity, and I think that is the most telling part of it.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the Minister's statement. I am pleased that this Government has committed to continue to invest in affordable housing, providing £2 billion of funding in this term of office, and its commitment to build more and to build better.
You've probably heard me—I think everybody else heard me—talking about the importance of building more council houses, and, yes, I agree with what the Minister just said: we want to build quality. Some of us have read about, though we're probably too young to remember, Parker Morris, but that was council houses being built to a quality that people could get.
I've also visited a development where the houses built for the registered social landlord were larger and to a higher quality than those being sold into the private sector. There is nothing wrong with that happening. I think that we ought to say, 'The public sector is a poorer quality should not be the mantra. The public sector should be at least as good, but preferably better.'
I am, however, sceptical but convincible about modern methods of construction as a way of quickly increasing affordable housing supply.
As the Minister is aware, the new methods of construction in the 1960s did not turn out well: steel houses in Swansea; high alumina cement in Olchfa school; Ronan Point; non-traditional houses in Swansea being demolished in Blaen-y-Maes and Clase and replaced by traditionally built houses by a registered social landlord; and also the tenements, which were more common in Scotland, but we had a few in Wales, and we had one in Swansea. You won't find that anymore either, because that's been knocked down.
An awful lot of these very modern, innovative developments of the 1960s are no more. So, why is the Minister convinced that there will be no problems with this generation of non-traditional housing build? Because traditional housing build has got one great advantage: they stay up for a very long time.

Julie James AC: As usual, Mike Hedges makes a very good point very succinctly, although I will say something in praise of the steel houses. My grandmother lived in one of the steel houses, as he knows—four houses outside my constituency into his constituency. At the time, those houses were the most splendid houses in Swansea by a long way. Again, she couldn't believe that she was living in one of them. Although the steel cladding hasn't stood the test of time, the house is very much still there, and still beautiful and still spacious, actually. So, it can be done.
The reason I am quite convinced about these methods, though, is because of the innovative housing programme and, as I was just saying in response to Delyth Jewell, that we are testing it. We are getting claims from the manufacturers and then we are pushing them through a testing programme to make sure that the claims are realised. So, actually, we are not rolling out at scale and pace something that we hope will work; we are rolling out things that we know will work and do deliver what they are said to deliver. That's a very important point because we don't want to make the mistakes that have been made in the past.
In terms of design, I am absolutely with him on the subject of design. We want beautiful houses, beautifully designed, that are houses for life. So, for these houses, we are looking for designs that will allow somebody to buy them as a starter home for the first time, and then stay in that house for the rest of their lives, adding bedrooms and even taking bedrooms away. So, the house can grow with you and then diminish with you over time, with wide doorways that accommodate wheelchairs and prams and buggies, wide stairwells, proper bathrooms on the ground floor—all the sorts of things that you need for a lifetime experience in a single house.
These methods of construction allow you to do just that. So, people are not disrupted from their community if they have a disability in the family, or if they have an older person, or if they have caring responsibilities. The houses are adaptable in situ.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister.As you are well aware, I have been a long-term proponent of prefabricated and modular housing as an answer to our social housing shortage and have been arguing for this approach since I was first elected. As someone who grew up in a prefab, I have many fond memories of my prefab home. I realise that the prefabs of yesteryear won't meet modern standards, but then neither do any homes built in that era.
I welcome the Welsh Government's new strategy for social housing, which accepts that traditional building methods cannot address our dire need for social housing. As the Minister has outlined in her statement, modern methods of construction and off-site construction will address our social-home shortage by building more of them, more quickly. Minister, I fully support this approach and hope to see the results very soon.
You state that building with MMC could reduce construction waste by up to 90 per cent. The need to decarbonise the construction industry cannot be overstated. Minister, given that the Welsh Government has failed to meet its tree-planting targets, will there be sufficient sustainable wood supplies to meet the future demands of MMC? Minister, how will you ensure that only Welsh-sourced materials are used in future construction products?
Your strategy states that MMC and OSM will help reduce energy bills. So, what consideration has been given to mitigating the need for active cooling as our climate becomes warmer and wetter? We have seen the devasting effects of severe weather events in the last few weeks. Minister, can you confirm that new homes built using MMC, whether on or off-site, will have in-built protections against flooding, such as one-way valves and flood barriers?
And finally, Minister, one of the biggest advantages of growing up in a prefab was access to a garden and the community. Will you ensure that all social homes built with MMC and OSM have a garden? Access to a garden is essential for families and children, but also elderly people, as it enables them to keep pets. So, Minister, will you ensure that social tenants in these new homes will be able to keep pets in order to help combat isolation and loneliness? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you for that series of questions and comments. In terms of the wood supplies, as I was saying in response to David Melding, this is absolutely associated with the growth of the timber industry in Wales. So, we certainly do not have enough wood of the right sort at the moment; we need to plant it, and we need to plant it in a way that assures a biodiverse forest. So, it's a forest that's recognisable as a forest—for those of us who drew a picture of a forest, it would look like that—but it's also crop-able, and that's the point. So, you don't clear crop. It's not a crop in itself, it's a forest. But you can crop it in a way that means that the forest stays, but you have single-species cropping of various sorts running through it. That's the best way to do it. It's done in lots of places in the world and there's no reason why we can't do it here.
I can't at the moment, unfortunately, say that we'll only do it with Welsh-sourced materials because that wouldn't be possible. But it's certainly our aim to get to there, and we are working with all of the manufacturers in this field, alongside Ken's business advisers and Business Wales, to look at their supply chains and see what we can do about making sure that they are sourcing, where possible, Welsh products, and where there's a gap in the supply chain, what we can do to stimulate somebody stepping into that gap and making sure that there is a Welsh product available. So, that's very much ongoing, and my colleague Lee Waters, with the Better Jobs Closer to Home piece and the foundational economy piece, has been doing the same thing with us, about making sure that the supply chain pulls together.
In terms of weather-proofing, not all of the modular systems and the modern methods of construction—which are not all modular, I have to say—do have complete flood protection, because not all of them will be designed to be built on a flood plain. But we are looking to see what we can do for houses that are built on flood plains. Actually, the best solution to that is not to build them on the flood plain in the first place. But we certainly will be looking to see what we can do in terms of weather-proofing. In terms of heat and cool, that's absolutely built in. So, air-source and ground-source heat pumps both cool and heat the house, depending on what the ambient temperature outside is, and that's a very important point.
In terms of a garden, the space standards will specify a garden in certain circumstances, but not in all circumstances. For example, sometimes it is both desirable and actually will be essential, because of the growing population, to have high-density, high-rise buildings. That doesn't mean low quality or low design or low spec. But of course, if you're on the fifth floor, you will not have a garden associated with your flat for your own use. What you will have access to is good, green infrastructure around the high-density building, and that's very important as well, so that we get the green infrastructure in our cities, and we get the high-density residential buildings right, so that people do have access to that essential outside space. On that I do agree. But it's not quite as simple as saying that people have a garden; it's much more complicated than that.
The last thing I wanted to say—and I apologise because I should have done this in response to a number of people—is that, yes, the money is cumulative, but it's not all modular. So, modern methods of construction are not all modular, and some of the IHP stuff is about modern methods of construction that are not necessarily off-site manufacture. So, it's not quite as simple as saying it's £45 million for that, but it is all around the modern methods of construction. Some of the IHP programme is about the testing mechanisms for what the claims are as well; some of the money will be used on that.
And the last thing I want to say in response to Caroline Jones and a number of other people who raised it is that this is very much a system based on the life cost of the building. So, it's not about driving the upfront cost of building it down to the lowest common denominator—Delyth raised this point with me as well—this is about making sure that, when the planning authority and the local authority look at the cost of the house, they look at the lifetime cost of the house, including what it costs to live in it and so on, not just the cost of constructing it in the first place.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I agree with pretty much everything that's been said, so I just want to focus on some further aspects. I just want to focus on the word 'beauty' in your statement, because I think that's a really important ambition. Why do we want to build ugly buildings? There's a huge cost to ugly buildings that we shouldn't be allowing.
I recently visited Ewenny Court in Ely, which in the First Minister's constituency, to see the nine one-and two-bedroom homes that anybody would be proud to be living in, because they meet the beauty criteria as well as the placemaking criteria. In the Public Accounts Committee inquiry that we're doing into planning, I've come across the Building Better, Building Beautiful Commission's report that was produced about a month ago, which has three asks: ask for beauty, refuse ugliness, and promote stewardship. That echoes the Minister's ambitions for placemaking. In that report, they quote a senior building expert who says:
'Some housebuilders…believe they can build any old crap and still sell'.
And I am sure that is the case. I just wondered what we can do to outlaw rubbish that costs huge amounts of money to rectify, and to ensure that we not only have the same high-quality standards for private housing as we have for social housing, as well as ensuring that planning authorities have the guts and the ability to refuse poor proposals, which are a cost to society. If we put up rubbish buildings, we've then got to tear them down or redo them.
So, I wondered if you could incorporate that into your review of the building regulations, as well as in your instructions to planning authorities, to simply refuse building proposals that aren't good enough and are not fully integrated into the placemaking ambitions that we have through this statement.

Julie James AC: Yes, I'd probably agree with that. The problem with the word 'beautiful' is that it's obviously subjective. So, what we're doing is we're using it as a short-term word for 'built to very good and exacting standards'. So, you might not look at a house and think, 'Gosh, that's beautiful', but another person might; but what you will be able to say is, 'It's built to a high quality, with good-sized rooms, good light, and good sources of everything else', and the fact that you don't like it because it's pink or blue won't matter.
And actually, one of the things we're looking at doing with local authorities that are developing some of this alongside us is having pattern books, so that they can pre-approve planning applications for particular sets of patterns of housing that obviously conform to all of the highest design quality requirements—the DQR, as they call it—but obviously look different. Because people have a different idea of what beautiful looks like. What we mean by beautiful is beautiful in size, in space, in energy efficiency, in liveability, and then whether you think it's green or pink on the outside is a matter for you and for the rest of the development. So, I do think it's important to make that point.
But we are designing that in, and we are rapidly going—in our consultation on Part L and the White Paper that will follow it—towards having the same space standards and the same beauty standards across Wales for all types of housing, and not differential as they are now. Mike Hedges I think pointed out that, at the moment, if you have social housing in Wales, you're probably in a better standard home than if you've recently bought one. I don't know that everybody knows that, and I don't have problem with that from a social housing point of view, but I do have a problem with it for the sustainability of the private sector. So, we are rapidly going towards having the same standards throughout.

Joyce Watson AC: I was really pleased to be awakened by your dulcet tones this morning on the tv, announcing with a cheery smile that you were going to build more homes in Wales. As chair of the cross-party group on construction, that is extremely good news.
But to be successful in achieving the ambition set out in the strategy, of course, we have to take many people along that journey with us. The Construction Industry Training Board and the industry are keen to support the strategy and to work with us to deliver the outcomes, and they are particularly interested in hearing more details around the number of homes, the projected timescale for development, and the proportion of affordable homes to be built using off-site manufacturing.
They are interested—and I'm sure everybody else here is—about the clarity that is needed to help develop the pipeline the sector will require to enable it to invest in these new types of technologies, and therefore the skills required to meet them. Therefore, Minister, they're hopingfor fairly accurate and readily available information in the near future. Because it is important to recognise that the skills requirements for delivering more social housing through modern technologies will be somewhat different to the skills that are required now, and it will be the case that the Construction Industry Training Board, the employers and the colleges will want to help you deliver your desired outcome.
With that in mind, they would like to understand, really, how we're going to teach those skills, and whether we might consider teaching the modern methods of construction through the eight new qualifications that are going to be introduced in 2021, and maybe include a new GCSE, an AS-level and A-level in construction and the built environment within that proposal. So, it would be really interesting to know whether that is in our thinking.
And finally from me, I am, and others have asked and are extremely interested to know where the raw material—the wood, in other words—is going to be sourcedfrom. And I know that you answered that question several times today, but what I'm particularly keen to seek from you, Minister, is an absolute assurance that we will not, in our ambition to build good houses for some people, destroy the homes of others because that would somehow be an almost ridiculous situation.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much for that, Joyce Watson.Just on the wood point, I'll just reiterate it, because I think it is worth reiterating. The strategy aims to create a strong domestic market for Welsh wood, and links to our aspiration to be a forest nation. And they are not in opposition to one another at all. Our ambition is to develop that thriving timber industry, and that requires a thoughtful national approach to commercial tree planting and harvesting. So, as I say, you don't clear crop mountainsides causing devastating soil loss, and all the rest of it; you have careful planting and cropping strategies in a sustainable biodiverse forest. That's perfectly possible and it's done in lots of places in the world, and there's no reason why we can't do that. That will need to harness our natural assets and it will help our economy, and it will help our environmental outcomes for that.
And then, the whole point of the IHP programme—the innovative housing programme—is to trial that so that we know what will work, we know where to plant it, we know where they're currently sourcing that wood and that we work with NRW and our councils to make sure that we source that responsibly. As I said in response to Caroline Jones, we can't currently do all of that from Wales, but we are working very hard on planting the timber now that will enable us to do that in the future. So, I think that's a really good point, well made; we do need to be really emphasising that. The fact that you're using a timber industry doesn't mean you're deforesting, because we definitely are not wanting to do that.
In terms of the construction industry, we have been working very closely with the construction sector. We certainly welcome their response to wanting to work with us to assist us in skills development, and so on. I mentioned in the statement that we'll be developing an implementation plan for the strategy, and as part of the implementation plan, we will certainly be addressing the skills base necessary in the workforce, and how we plan to integrate that with the qualifications and, indeed the apprenticeship programme that my colleague Ken Skates is looking at alongside the new qualifications, Joyce, that you've already mentioned. 
And then, the last thing to say just in terms of prioritisation, we are very keen on getting vulnerable groups into employment via that route. I did say briefly in the statement that we'll be looking at groups like prisoners, but we're also looking at long-term unemployed. These factories can be really quite small so they can be local to where the house building is, so you don't have one big source—a big, massive factory taking up a load of land somewhere and distributing stuff by lorry; you've got small, local factories building local housing for local people, using local employment. So, creating local employment using local people.
So, there are lots of win-wins in this strategy that I think we will be working on with the construction industry and the SME house builders, in particular, to take that forward.

Thank you very much, Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales: Metro Projects in Wales

Item 6 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales: metro projects in Wales, and I call on the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd.This Government’s ambition to see a more prosperous, greener and equal Wales is one I hope we all aspire to in this Senedd. I'd also expect everyone to share our ambition for a modern transport system in Wales, a transport system that plays its part in contributing to three ambitions: delivering economic growth in rural and urban areas; encouraging people to use more sustainable forms of transport in order to minimise environmental impacts; and providing efficient and affordable journeys accessible to all.

Ken Skates AC: As we know, our railway infrastructure in Wales has been continuously and systematically starved of investment. Unsurprisingly, as a consequence, Wales has some of the UK’s slowest inter-city rail speeds, the lowest level of rail ridership, and the highest percentage of car journeys. This is simply not sustainable.
Our metro programmes in the south east, in the south west, and the north will deliver the necessary changes through a customer-focused, integrated, accessible and sustainable multi-modal network across all regions. Trains, buses and the active travel network will work together to connect people and places efficiently and effectively for work, life, and leisure.
To deliver this, however, we require Welsh Government to be in control of all the levers necessary to deliver a fully integrated transport system, and despite the constraints of the current rail ecosystem, in which the UK Government defines priorities and allocates investment according to their own priorities, the Welsh Government has nonetheless funded and progressed the ambitious south Wales metro programme to develop the economy and support regeneration across the Cardiff capital region.
And today, I wish to reaffirm our commitment to our metros and set out our plans to develop similarly ambitious programmes for south-west Wales and Swansea bay, north Wales, and further expansion in the Cardiff capital region. These will build on the current metro principles, but now with an even greater focus on connectivity, decarbonisation, and integration as we develop future phases.
Following the recent triggering of the transfer of ownership and responsibility of the core Valleys Lines, the next phase of this ambitious project will deliver electrification, new trains, faster and more frequent services, and provide the foundation for further and necessary expansion. This ambitious programme to address climate change, improve air quality, and relieve congestion clearly demonstrates what is possible when powers and funding are devolved and decentralised.
Now, until full rail devolution is secured, we need the UK Government to improve wider network capability, capacity and resilience including upgrading our mainlines to enable faster, more frequent, and more reliable services, alongside measures to address network bottlenecks such as Ebbw Valley and junction, between Wrexham and Chester, Cardiff west, and Swansea station.
Now, the spine of our metro in north Wales will be a major upgrade of the Borderlands line to offer turn-up-and-go services from Wrexham, and through working with Merseytravel, deliver services all the way through to Liverpool.We will develop our key hubs, for example at Shotton, to provide an interchange between rail services, as well as integrated bus services across our regional hubs. To effectively deliver integrated, attractive services across the north Wales coast and the Borderlands line, we need new all-stop commuter services to complement faster long distance services running on an upgraded, electrified mainline.
In west Wales and Swansea bay, Transport for Wales has worked with the region to develop an initial package of measures, including new long distance and local metro rail services along the currently under-utilised Swansea District Line, offering reduced journey times from west Wales to Swansea, Cardiff, and across the border.
The new metro services would, via new rail infrastructure, and a number of new stations and strategic park-and-ride sites, connect the urban areas of Swansea and Neath directly to both Swansea High Street and Neath stations, encouraging further development at those locations. Now, we've also progressed work to enhance and expand bus services in the Swansea bay region, which will be integrated with this rail programme. Subject to further business case development, this will be a rolling programme that willstart to deliver benefits across the region within the next two years.
In advance of any changes to the devolution settlement in respect of rail infrastructure, I would like the UK Government to work with us to accelerate this programme. We wish to explore more innovative approaches to the application of traditional rail standards to assess the potential for new and/or reopened lines.
Our forthcoming bus legislation will offer us opportunities to significantly enhance and expand our bus services, filling in current gaps in our rail network and offering increased frequency, integration and speeds to our regional hubs. We will assess the potential for segregated busways and public transport priority measures to support further network expansion. These public transport networks will be critical to supporting regional and local economic development and regeneration. It will also allow us to develop places designed around communities.
Our climate change obligations dictate that we progress these ambitious proposals. We need to ensure that decision making on metros in Wales is fully integrated, of course, with regional planning and with wider investment in infrastructure and service delivery. The ongoing development and application of sophisticated transport, land use, and economic models covering the whole of Wales will provide the necessary analytical foundation for these developments. They'll also support our economic and regeneration interventions at key interchanges and at smaller community hubs across the country. In doing so, we want to work with local authorities to locate more of our public services and operations to hub locations connected to these networks.
We're already working on proposals to co-locate more activities near Wrexham General and our plans for Deeside Industrial Park station will offer viable public transport options for commuters. This approach could also have major impacts in Newport and Swansea where commuting contributes to daily peak-hour congestion on the M4.
Now, we're also working to embed the development and delivery of metros across the country to develop local supply chains, to diversify expertise, and expand skills.I have asked TfW to direct effort to develop and deliver our metros and will share further details of progress with Assembly Members.
Finally, Dirprwy Llywydd, to be clear, to deliver these programmes and to address decades of underinvestment by the UK Government in our rail network, we need ownership and funding of rail infrastructure. Wales has, for too long, been low on the list of Westminster's priorities for enhancing the rail network in England and in Wales. Rail devolution will enable us to put this right, building on the recent rail franchise award and infrastructure ownership, which are already delivering results. We look forward to the imminent Williams review and the White Paper to allow us to reform our railways and to create the fully integrated public transport network that Wales richly deserves. The effects of a decade of austerity have been felt across all regions and sectors. Plans by the UK Government to increase spend on infrastructure in this Parliament are very welcome, and Wales's share of this will amount to some £3.7 billion. With this funding, and a fair share of the HS2 spend over the next 10 years, we will deliver our plans to transform urban and inter-city connectivity in Wales.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement and for the advanced copy as well? Can I perhaps answer the first question? I think a metro system to drive economic growth in south-west and north Wales is much needed, and we on these benches welcome those projects and the ambition that you've set out.
I think it's also correct to say that the UK Government is investing a record amount in Wales's railway infrastructure, and Network Rail investment in the Wales route for control period 6 will be over £1.5 billion. Can I also say—and I know this—that the UK Government is and will support rail infrastructure, including new stations that have a strong business case behind them? And it's also, of course, been confirmed that there will be an additional Barnett consequential from the recent bus announcement, which I'm sure that the Minister will welcome.
Minister, with regard to the metro system, if I can take you back to a statement in March 2017, entitled 'Moving North Wales Forward', you listed exciting projects in development, including rail and integrated transport schemes. Almost three years on, I'm keen to see what progress has been made. There have been concerns about a lack of action, so can you provide a timetable of exactly when these integrated transport hubs will be rolled out, and how much funding in total is being set aside for the project?
During the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee general transport scrutiny just under two weeks ago, members of the committee questioned you on your latest position on each metro project and the governance arrangements around them. I was left unclear as to which organisation provided the overall strategic direction for each of the three projects. Now, whilst your statement today suggests that there is an intention for Transport for Wales to be given a remit and to have overall strategic direction for each of the projects, work does seem, and has seemed, to be fragmented at the moment, with different stakeholders, including the Welsh Government and local authorities, working together up until this point. So, therefore—and perhaps since the committee session—I wonder what discussions you may have had with Transport for Wales on the governance and funding arrangements of each of the projects. Will you put this information in the public domain, and are you confident that Transport for Wales has the capacity to deliver the schemes on time and on budget, and can you set out a clear road map of delivery of these projects?
Your 2017 vision rightly points out, Minister, that there are strong links between the economy of north-east Wales and that of north-west England, and I hope you can agree with me that it's a welcome announcement from the UK Government in regard to HS2, which has a huge potential to support economic growth and boost skills and promote regeneration across north-east Wales. Passengers travelling from north Wales will directly benefit from interconnecting into HS2 at Crewe, with significant reductions in journey times in England. And I wonder also—would you agree with me, Minister, that it's not just about where money and development is spent, it's about who benefits from that spend and development?
With regard to the transfer of the core Valleys lines into Welsh Government ownership to allow for work on the south-east Wales metro to progress, you have previously stated that the transfer would take place in September 2019, and, during the committee session on 29 January, Transport for Wales stated that they expect the transfer to be completed by the end of March 2020. So, can you provide an explanation as to why there has been a delay, and is the transfer on track to be completed by the end of March this year?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for his questions, and also for the support he has demonstrated for our ambitions for the metro systems across Wales?
Can I just deal with the very first point that Russell George made concerning investment in rail infrastructure in Wales in control period 6? All of that investment during control period 6 will be for maintenance of the rail network—maintenance. No money is being allocated towards rail enhancements. That means that, essentially, because of underinvestment over the past decade, we are seeing the UK Government finally waking up to the fact that deferred maintenance costs an incredible sum of money. And it's as a result of that deferred maintenance, that irresponsible approach to maintaining the rail network along the Wales route, that the UK Government has now had to dig deep in order to pull forward the investment for maintenance. We wish to see a similarly generous offer for rail enhancements.
I do welcome any consequential that would come from the Prime Minister's announcement concerning bus services and active travel—the £5 billion fund. That could equate to something in the order of £50 million per year over five years, and would certainly allow us to increase the bus services support grant, so I do welcome a consequential from that particular fund. But, if we are to deliver the game-changing ambitious plans for our metros, we require further investment from UK Government. For example, I've talked about a four-trains-per-hour service from Wrexham through to Liverpool. That will require, as Members may be aware from the letter that I have sent with the metro mayor of Liverpool, Steve Rotherham, approximately £150 million of investment from UK Government. That is a tiny, tiny sum of money when you consider that, over the past five years, we've seen around £1 billion of underinvestment—money taken away from Wales, money that should have been spent on the Wales route.
Now, HS2 does indeed have the potential to transform many communities that it will serve. But if Wales is to benefit from HS2, then certain conditions must be met. We must have the right outcome at Crewe, the right hub must be developed and delivered at Crewe. We must also see electrification of the north Wales main line, and electrification of the Crewe to Chester line. That would then enable future high-speed trains to travel through to Holyhead. That is absolutely vital. The estimated cost for those works is around about £1 million, which, again, compared to the £1.6 billion estimate for HS2 is not a huge amount of investment, and then I would agree that HS2 could deliver significant benefits to north Wales.
In terms of delivering further benefits to south Wales, because there could be a net adverse impact on the economy of south Wales, we wish to see those business cases that were promised by UK Government taken forward to the next stage. Those business cases, when the electrification of the south Wales main line was cancelled, included the promise to look at improving speed on the south Wales main line. That must happen. We must see improvements to the south Wales main line as a matter of urgency.
I take the point that the Member made concerning strategic direction, and it has been different in each of the metro areas where, for example, in the Swansea bay area, we've been working very much alongside the four local authorities. In north Wales, it's very much been focused on a collaboration between Welsh Government and Flintshire council, because the commencement of the metro concept is in Deeside. However, TfW have been remitted for the forthcoming year to take strategic direction into their responsibilities and to ensure that programmes across all three metro areas are accelerated as much as possible. But, again, Russell George asked about TfW's ability to be able to cost the work. Well, TfW will be relying on UK Government funding to take forward the programmes.
The CVL transfer asset has now been triggered, and it will be completed by the end of March. There was a delay due to negotiations, but I am pleased that it has now been triggered, and I look forward to taking control of that major piece of infrastructure so that we can invest £0.75 billion in the transformational south-east Wales metro.

Helen Mary Jones AC: May I also thank the Minister for the statement?

Helen Mary Jones AC: Thank you very much indeed for the statement and for the advance copy. Similarly to Russell George, I'm very happy to give the commitment of these benches to supporting the principles behind the developments of these metros. We all, of course, want to see a more prosperous, greener and more equal Wales. I'm a little bit surprised, in the Minister's statement, that he talks about putting an even greater focus on connectivity, decarbonisation and integration, because I thought that was the point of the metros in the first place, but, nevertheless, that may be somewhat churlish.
If I may, I'll just raise a couple of general points with the Minister and then I've got some more detailed matters that I'd like to raise. To begin with, I'd like to associate myself with everything that he said about historic underinvestment by UK Governments in our rail structure. Of course, this is not something that began 10 years ago, and I would say that this is not exactly the best example of the UK's solidarity, regardless of which party is in control in Westminster, that the First Minister is always keen to remind us of.
But, be that as it may, I'm very glad to see that the Welsh Government has come to Plaid Cymru's thinking in terms of devolution of rail to this Senedd. We've advocated this move for a very long time, and it's good to see that the Minister's caught up with us. But, in terms of whether or not this is going to happen, can I ask the Minister what discussions he's been able to have recently with the UK Government? I fully appreciate that it may have been difficult to do that because we've got reshuffles, and you may have new people in charge, but can you update us on their thinking in terms of full devolution, which of course would require the full devolution of the necessary funding as well? And, can I ask the Minister: if the UK Government won't do what he's asking them to do, what is the fallback position? If they won't either devolve or make the investment that he's asking for, what kind of contingency plans does he require those developing the metro systems to build in, so that we can make some steps towards these laudable aims, even if we don't have the resources that we need to?

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm also very glad to see that the Welsh Government has come around to our side of the argument with regard to Wales getting its fair share out of the HS2 spend. The Minister may or may not remember a Welsh Government spokesperson saying some years ago—and I quote—when we were talking about the Barnett consequential: 'This is embarrassing guff from Plaid Cymru. They've got it totally wrong on HS2. Rather than admit their mistake, Plaid are digging a deeper and deeper hole.' I wasn't there, so I'm not quite sure what hole that was. We were then accused of a lack of humility. I'm sure that the Minister will now want to dissociate himself from that previous statement and to be absolutely ready to say that we were right all along.
If I can turn to some specifics, with regard to the north Wales metro, it's good to see some progress on this. But, in that context, it's quite concerning, and perhaps counter-intuitive, that of the additional £2 billion investment in transport that the Welsh Government intends to make in its budget, which is very welcome, only £20 million of that has been allocated to the north. Would he accept that, as things stand, the north-east plan relies very heavily on improving current services rather than looking at the transformation of services, and does he think that that's good enough?
Unsurprisingly, I disagree with Russell George with regard to the extent of the investment in linking the north of Wales into the north of England. That, of course, is important to do, but there is also a need for us to build stronger links between the north and south of Wales and, indeed, between the north-east of Wales and the north-west of Wales. I think that we need to have a balance, and it would be interesting to hear from the Minister what his understanding is, when he talks about the investment for that link to Liverpool, how much of that investment he expects to be spent in Wales and how much he expects to be spent in England.
Again, I'm very pleased to welcome what he's had to say about the Swansea metro, but I hope that the Minister will agree with me that it's very important that the Swansea metro—well, Swansea and south-west Wales, indeed—doesn't just link east to west along the rail equivalent of the M4 corridor, but also has the north-south links that will enable Valleys communities, further to the question that my colleague Dai Lloyd asked earlier, to make reliable use of those rail, light rail and bus services. Obviously, that's very important for people to be able to get access to good-quality job opportunities.
With regard to the forthcoming bus legislation that the Minister mentions, he will recall that we raised some concerns in the committee about the focus in the legislation on empowering local government, which of course I'm sure we would all very much welcome, but we are concerned, as I'm sure the Minister will remember, about whether or not this legislation provides the right vehicle for national and regional co-ordination. I understand and accept what the Minister said to the committee about regional co-ordination, but I'm still at a loss to see where this legislation will support the national co-ordination that we need if the metro developments are truly to work.
In terms of leadership and strategic direction, in response to Russell George, the Minister did clarify a little bit more about the role of Transport for Wales, but I'm still not clear about where the accountability and leadership is going to sit for this. Obviously, in terms of our scrutiny as Members of this Senedd, we will be scrutinising the Minister, but we also need to know who the Minister is asking questions of in terms of this broader strategic direction. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us a little bit more about that, and how that accountability is going to balance with the very much more local and regionalised focus on bus services.
I want to briefly abuse my privilege and make a regional point. The Minister mentions in his statement hub locations, Wrexham general hospital—all very welcome. I wonder if the Minister will commit today to allowing his officials to discuss with the Hywel Dda health board the potential for public transport around the proposed new hospital site. Obviously, that proposed new hospital is a very long way off, and I know that the business case hasn't been completed. But, in discussions that we've had on this side of the house with Hywel Dda, they are very keen that, from the beginning, that hub should be a hub that can be supported by really effective public transport, because otherwisethat will just increase the pressure on the roads in that area. And I wonder if the Minister will be prepared to commit today to his officials working at this very early stage with Hywel Dda to enable that to be a hub, potentially, as part of the south-west metro.
Finally, the Minister mentions the infrastructure, the Barnett consequential that we expect of £3.7 billion. Are we to take from his statement today that he expects all of that to be spent on transport, or is that a matter for further discussion? Because at the moment, if one reads his statement, that is what one would think.
Just a final comment more than a question: the Minister talks about transforming urban and inter-city connectivity in Wales. We of course have many communities in Wales that have almost no public transport at all, and I'd urge the Minister that, in his focus on the need, and we're not disagreeing with the need for this urban and Valleys and inter-city connectivity, we don't lose sight of those communities—and I'm thinking particularly of some in Gwynedd, some in Pembrokeshire—that have no access to public transport. I'm seeking some reassurance from the Minister that this isn't an either/or.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her questions and assure her that that focus is equally on rural and distinct communities as it is on urban communities? It's why we've invested so heavily in services through the TrawsCymru network. It's why we believe that the reforms to local bus services through legislation that's going to be brought to this Chamber is so vitally important, and we are fully committed to improving connectivity right across Wales, in rural and in urban areas.
Of course, the £3.7 billion consequential will be spent against Welsh Government priorities, and transport is a key Welsh Government priority. We know the cost of rail infrastructure improvements. That £3.7 million could pay for many projects that would improve the metro infrastructure in north and south Wales.
Now, I'm going to go back to the first points that Helen Mary Jones made, and thank her for the support for the principles of the metro projects. I think that support is consistent with other support that has been offered across this Chamber for the Welsh Government's approach to rail infrastructure, and in particular to our submission to Williams. In essence, the problem that we have with investment in infrastructure in the UK is that the business case is set against Treasury Green Book rules, and that will always skew investment towards areas that have already benefited heavily from investment—areas where there already is good connectivity and areas where there is already a high concentration of wealth. Those rules need to be torn up. I took heart from briefings that took place over the Christmas period by either UK Government Ministers or advisers to the press that Ministers were looking at tearing up those rules. We've seen nothing of any paper being torn up since, but I am hopeful that they will take a different approach now that they have a different Prime Minister, and that they will back up their claims of wanting to rebalance the UK economy by implementing new rules for investment.
In terms of questions about devolution of rail infrastructure, and whether there might be a plan B, we simply don't know what Keith Williams is going to recommend when his report is finally published. Therefore, we don't know what could be contained with the rail White Paper. I've met with Secretaries of State on numerous occasions, not just within transport, but also in the Wales Office, and pressed the case for full devolution and a fair settlement to go with it. I think we've made a powerful and united case for devolution—a united case that has received support from every single party in this Chamber, and so I remain optimistic. However, if it's decided that devolution will not take place, then we would expect a carefully considered method of investing what we deserve in Wales, and in a way that gives us control over enhancements.
Now, in terms of HS2, I'm not entirely certain what the Plaid Cymru position is on HS2, to be honest. I think it is to oppose HS2 even if it brings a £50 million annual benefit to north Wales. The position of Plaid Cymru seems to be to oppose HS2, and I would invite Plaid Cymru just to confirm whether or not Plaid Cymru would oppose HS2 if we were successful in electrifying the line from Crewe to Holyhead. [Interruption.] Right, so we've had the answer. We've had the answer. In no circumstances will Plaid Cymru support better connectivity across north Wales and to London and to the midlands and to the north-west with HS2. That is its position—that north Wales will lose out under Plaid Cymru. If they were to take forward their proposals, we would never see electrified HS2 services to the north of our country. That is simply unacceptable as a position to take, because we know, for example, that, there or thereabout, 25,000 people cross the border from Wales to England each day. They can't access their jobs by rail at the moment or by public transport—they are having to take motor vehicles. That's why our focus at the outset has been on improving connectivity in and around the Deeside industrial estate.
A similar number of people cross the border the other way to get employment, contributing hugely to carbon emissions, and that's why, as a responsible Government that is determined to meet its obligations in the climate emergency, we are investing in the metro in that area. And it's also why I believe that HS2 could be beneficial to the north of Wales—[Interruption.]—but only if the right option for Crewe is delivered and we get that £1 billion investment from Crewe to Holyhead.[Interruption.] The Member shouts, 'That is not on the table.' That is precisely what the Prime Minister has been told is needed by the First Minister. We've not had a response yet from the Prime Minister, but it is very well known now that with the TEN-T programme, with the obligation on the UK Government to deliver electrification—if that takes place, we could see future Avanti services, HS services, high-speed services travelling through north Wales. Why would Plaid Cymru oppose HS2 delivering for north Wales? It's a bizarre position to take.
Now, the £20 million that is being allocated for metro improvements is money that can be spent in the financial year that it's being allocated—money that will deliver improvements across north Wales, not just within that immediate Deeside enterprise park area. And it's part of our plans to spend £1 billion on transport schemes in north Wales—£1 billion. We would hope the UK Government would meet our investment with £1 billion to electrify the main line as well.
In terms of accountability for metro schemes, for bus services and so forth—well, of course, it sits with the Welsh Minister in so far as Welsh Government responsibilities are concerned. But with the corporate joint committees, they would have, through their council leaders—responsibility and accountability would be with them.
I can promise the Member that we are already working with the health board with regard to Hywel Dda and making sure that we do have good public transport links to that particular piece of social infrastructure. It's absolutely vital that people are able to access hospitals by public transport, and that's exactly what we're going to make sure we do with Hywel Dda.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

David J Rowlands AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? We, of course, all share your ambition to see a more prosperous Wales. We might sometimes disagree on how to achieve that, but I think it is true to say that, by and large, we as a party have supported your attempts to reinvigorate the economy with a more business-friendly approach, with the improvements in infrastructure forming a large part of your support for the private business economy in Wales. However, following on from Russell George's remarks, given its rather stumbling start, do you still believe that Transport for Wales has the expertise and the resources to deliver on your ambitions?
We all understand, if not the key enabler, a transport system that takes people and goods around the country in the most efficient and, hopefully, with maximum comfort, is one that has a major impact on the growth of the economy. Companies, for instance, now use the just-in-time operational methods, where they do not hold large stocks of components, but rely on fast, efficient delivery of such from a number of suppliers. So, fast, efficient transport systems are critical to these manufacturers, often deciding on where companies locate. Can I ask the Minister: has he had maximum consultation with companies with regard to these sorts of operations?
We all understand, Minister, getting people out of their cars and onto trains and buses is a major challenge. As you outline in your statement, Wales has suffered from underinvestment by the UK Government for far too long, and we appreciate the financial and operational constraints you operate under. We therefore fully support your call for the devolution of rail infrastructure projects and operations to Wales. I was going to ask you what sort of pressure you were putting on the UK Government to deliver those competencies, but I think in answer to earlier questions you've given a comprehensive answer to that.
We also support your connectivity ambitions with regard to the expansion of the metro principles to both north and west Wales. A transport system, whether by bus or rail, which links all of Wales must be a priority for the Welsh Government. Do you envisage that local authority bus companies will play a large part in that connectivity of these more remote regions?
Minister, in the past, industries linked up with and along lines of transport. In your statement, you refer to co-locating activities alongside rail networks. We would agree with this strategy, because it not only makes far easier market access but it would also enable more use of public transport for commuters, thus reducing overall traffic on our roads.
In conclusion, Minister, we welcome and support the ambitions laid out in your statement. We acknowledge that if Wales is to climb the economic league table and deliver better jobs, and subsequently better lives for the people of Wales, a fast, efficient, well-connected transport system is an essential ingredient in making this attainable. But please, Minister, sooner rather than later.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank David Rowlands for his contribution and again recognise the clear support that is forthcoming from his party for our position on rail devolution? I'd like to thank David Rowlands as well for recognising the importance of the private sector to our prosperity in Wales, and that is vitally important, particularly at this moment in time when we do face uncertainty over Brexit still. Whilst enjoying record low unemployment, we wish to develop a country that has more high-quality job opportunities for its citizens.
And we have engaged quite extensively with the business community through business councils in the development of transport proposals. For example, in developing our vision for the metro in north Wales, we engaged and consulted with Deeside professionals. We've also engaged with the West Cheshire and North Wales Chamber of Commerce. We've engaged with the business council for north Wales as well, ensuring that the needs of businesses across the region are recognised in the development of our plans.
Fast and efficient transport links are absolutely vital in growing businesses and in attracting inward investment, particularly in areas of Wales that are close to the border. It's all too easy sometimes to allow our competitors to take jobs and opportunities through not investing in infrastructure, and that's why it's vitally important that the UK Government steps up and invests with capital in rail transport.
In terms of local authority bus companies, this is just one of the provisions—if you like, one of the tools—that will be available in the legislation that's going to be coming forward, and the ability for councils to be able to run their own bus companies of course is something that could be considered in rural areas where there is no competition, or where there is equally no provision. And it's just one of the tools that we'll be providing for in the legislation that's going to be introduced in the spring to this Chamber.
I would agree also with the Member in what he said about the co-location of services. It aligns very neatly as well with our town-centre-first approach to public investment, to the public sector locating in areas where it can generate town-centre income for shop owners and service providers. And a good example of how we're looking at co-locating services is in Wrexham, with the Wrexham gateway vision, where we will be investing in Wrexham General station, but where I'm pleased to say that we will be purchasing land at the kop end of Wrexham Racecourse. It's a particularly proud moment for Welsh Government to be in a position to do that, because it could lead to the transformation of that particular areas, that gateway area of Wrexham, bringing in more services at a historic site.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, it is important that the north Wales metro delivers for generations to come, and it is the transport network that residents in north Wales deserve. For residents in Alyn and Deeside, this is about delivering the Flintshire corridor to act as the spine of the north Wales metro. It is also about creating key transport hubs to achieve a fully integrated, multi-modal system, and I welcome in your statement, Minister, that you have recognised Shotton as a key hub.
However, we will need more hubs to ensure all areas, including our rural communities, benefit. This will have to include places like Buckley and Broughton, to allow them and surrounding rural areas to be properly connected. Minister, we also need to deliver on a station for Deeside industrial park, and I welcome your commitment to that station, which will link people from right across north Wales and across the border to the north west of England to their place of work. So, Minister, what work can be done to make sure all of these communities can benefit from such a metro, in particular our rural areas?
And if I may, Minister, bring you back to your statement where you were absolutely right to mention the years of under-investment from a UK Conservative Government, a Government that is spending over £100 billion on an England-only HS2. Minister, what message do you send to the UK Government and others who are refusing to give the people of north Wales what is rightfully theirs?

Ken Skates AC: Absolutely. Can I thank Jack Sargeant for his questions and the points that he's made? HS2 could have the potential to transform north Wales. It is absolutely vital, therefore, that we get the right solution, as I've said to many Members now, both at Crewe and for north Wales, the electrification of the main line. If that happens, it could be hugely, hugely beneficial for north Wales. That, I believe, is something that every party should be fighting for, for north Wales, not just for parts of Wales, but for north Wales and all parts of Wales.
In terms of the work that is being taken forward within the Deeside area, I can inform Jack that Transport for Wales has been commissioned to develop schemes for an integrated Shotton station and also a new Deeside Parkway station, working in partnership with both Network Rail and with Flintshire County Council. This work will, in turn, complement the £12 million of funding in the last three financial years to improve bus schemes along the A548 and the B5129 and within Deeside industrial park.
Jack Sargeant raised the prospect of stations in Broughton and closer to the centre of the town in Buckley. They are both projects that I think merit further investigation. I think, in particular, a station near Airbus in Broughton would have huge potential to remove the need for 6,000 people to drive to work.
In terms of the Flintshire corridor scheme, this is particularly exciting. This £300 million scheme would enable us to deliver dedicated bus lanes and dedicated bus rapid transport systems. We could create, in turn, the longest bus corridor stretching from Deeside industrial park right along A55 to Rhyl and potentially beyond, linking together the north west of Wales and the north east of Wales through bus transport on the A55, as well as through the north Wales main line, which again I would hope, at some point in the future, will be electrified, with high-speed services running along it.

We are almost out of time on this statement, and I have very many speakers still wanting to contribute. I'll extend it slightly and call at least three other speakers, but I will want all of you to be as succinct as possible so I can call as many speakers—and succinct from the Minister, as well, please. Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome your acknowledgement of the research showing that the HS2, if connected through the appropriate Crewe hub, will have a beneficial economic impact for north Wales and the wider region.
In March 2016, the UK Government announced its growth deal offer to north Wales and the Welsh Government. The following month, the Welsh Government announced its proposals for the north Wales metro, and I think the first time you mentioned it in this Chamber after the 2016 election was in response to a question from me about the north Wales growth deal offer. You mentioned the north Wales business council and, I think, the chamber of commerce, but what direct input has the north Wales growth board and economic ambition board had into the design and delivery of the evolving north Wales metro?
You say you will develop key hubs, you refer to Shotton as an example, to provide integrated bus services. Your written statement on the north Wales metro last October said you were working in partnership with Flintshire council and bus operators to deliver a bus quality partnership covering services. Can you provide an update on that, four months down the road, in terms of that partnership? And what, again, direct input, given their expressed interest in this, have community transport operators in north-east Wales had into the design and delivery of the north Wales metro?
You stated last October in your statement that, having initially focused on the delivery of the metro integrated transport hub approach in Deeside, you intend to roll out the concept to other key employment hubs, including Wrexham, Rhyl, Prestatyn, St Asaph, Abergele, Colwyn Bay, Conwy, Llandudno and the Menai area, and you made some reference to this earlier. Realistically, what timescales are you thinking of, notwithstanding a political clock in the future, to enable that to occur?
And finally, you refer to even greater focus on connectivity, decarbonisation, and integration—something that Helen Mary Jones referred to earlier—and your plans for Deeside industrial park, you say, will offer viable public transport options for commuters. In your written statement last October, you also talked about the new park-and-ride site and active travel routes on Deeside industrial park. However, I understand there's been a failure of connectivity. For example, only two double chargers are being installed for the 240 parking spaces in that park and ride, and even that only occurred after sector intervention with the council. So, how will you ensure better integration of decarbonisation technology as we take this forward?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Mark Isherwood for his questions? With regard to the charging scheme that we have at Deeside industrial park, we expect the market, first and foremost, to invest in these schemes, and then, when there's market failure, we will use taxpayers' valuable investment to invest in these schemes. But all of the indications are that, in places such as Deeside industrial park and in our railway stations, the private sector is ready to invest. And that's why TfW, Transport for Wales, have been remitted to work on a strategy for utilising the public estate to draw in private sector investment.
In terms of HS2, I just go back to the point I made earlier: yes, there would be a £50 million benefit to the economy of north-east Wales, however, it is dependent on the right hub being developed in Crewe. But the benefits could be so much greater, so much greater, if an additional £1 billion was to be spent on electrifying from Crewe to Chester and then through to Holyhead; £1 billion compared to the £1 billion great train robbery that we've seen in the past five years. This is simply IOUs coming to reality, if the UK Government decides to invest. And against an overall spend of £106 billion, £1 billion of investment in north Wales is not a considerable ask of the UK Government.
In terms of engagement with the North Wales Economic Ambition Board on our vision, we have presented to and engaged with council leaders, higher education leaders, further education leaders and representatives of business organisations. Much of the work stems from the recommendations of Growth Track 360, the report that provided the Welsh Government and the UK Government with a framework for investment in rail services and rail infrastructure. And the Member will be aware that Growth Track 360 comes from the work of the Mersey Dee Alliance, which includes council leaders who also sit on the North Wales Economic Ambition Board.
Now, Mark Isherwood is right to question the investment and when it will lead to improvements at those hubs that I mentioned in my statement. I'm pleased to say that that £20 million of additional money for the north Wales metro will be used for some of those hubs. Whether it can be spread across all of them with major impact is to be determined, but we're going to use that £20 million for those hubs elsewhere in north Wales and not just concentrate it within Deeside where there is already a considerable sum of investment.

Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd, for the opportunity, first of all, to point out that Plaid Cymru has opposed HS2 because of its negative impact on Wales for over a decade, since the idea was first raised under the last Labour Government. I remember that as I was the spokesperson for transport in Westminster. We've been consistent on this issue.
I wanted to ask about the western Valleys again. I say 'again' because Dai Lloyd did raise this with the First Minister—and he didn't receive a response. Helen Mary raised it with you just now—and still hasn't received an answer. So, third time lucky, hopefully, for the western Valleys.
There was an agreement three years ago, as part of the budget agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Government, that you were going to fund development work on a metro to Swansea bay and the western Valleys—including the valleys of Amman, Gwendraeth, Dulais, Tawe and Neath —because of the importance of ensuring that those post-industrial areas weren't left out of the metro.
And yet, there's no word of those valleys in your statement today, and I've received a response from you that confirms that the feasibility study that was funded as a result of the agreement between us hasn't looked at the western Valleys at all. Why have you turned your back on the agreement between us, and why should anyone in the western Valleys believe a word that you and the Government are saying?

Ken Skates AC: Can I first of all pick up on the point of HS2 again? If my interpretation of Plaid's position is correct, Plaid are opposing, under all circumstances, HS2; that includes if HS2 were to be extended to north Wales. That is Plaid Cymru's position. I think it's absolutely right that people in north Wales know that Plaid Cymru would oppose high-speed rail services to north Wales. It's absolutely vital that people understand that.
In terms of west Wales and the development work, that development work has been conducted. We've also funded development work by the four councils in south-west Wales. A metro scheme must begin, first and foremost, with an assessment of what we're trying to solve, what problems we're trying to overcome. That's precisely what's happening with WelTAG studies. That's precisely what's happening with metro enhancement framework projects to assess corridor opportunities, and then to carry out further work in order to discover whether it would be best to deploy rail-based solutions or bus solutions. That is consistent with work right across Wales, whether it be in the south-west Wales Valleys, or north Wales, or the south east of Wales as we enhance the metro in the south east as well.

Adam Price AC: What about our agreement?

Ken Skates AC: We've delivered.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, I just want to raise a few points with regard to your report and your references to the south-east Wales metro. As you know, in the Taff Ely area, there's been considerable economic regeneration from the development of the metro. That's had a massive impact on Pontypridd itself. But of course, it was only a few weeks ago that we saw all this publicity over an announcement by the Prime Minister of £500 million for opening new lines. It received considerable coverage.
Yet, for a number of years now, we've been talking about and having discussions between—quite advanced discussions now—Rhondda Cynon Taf and Cardiff council, and of course various representations have been made, which Welsh Government's involved in, and that is for the re-opening of a railway line from Cardiff through to the Beddau spur, through to Llantrisant, Pontyclun, which would link. Some 85 per cent to 90 per cent of that railway line still actually exists. And of course, it is an area where, over the next decade or so, there are going to be 20,000 or so new homes. So, it is an area where there is a massive expansion of population and no capacity on the roads and so on.
Now, as you'll know, Minister, there's a report, a business plan, that's being prepared—it was funded by the councils, et cetera—that is due for publication soon, I think. None of us has seen it, and I'm not quite sure whether it is quite complete yet. I wonder if you could update us as to what the status is now of that report and what the next steps are likely to be with what is, I think, a really exciting potential project, and that is the re-opening of an old railway line in an area that is massively congested—massive economic growth—and where there are major environmental issues that can be resolved by that.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Mick Antoniw for his questions? He makes a very powerful case for the reopening of lines in his constituency, in the region and across Wales. It can lead to regeneration and to the creation of opportunities for people to get into sustained, decent jobs.
The reverse Beechingfund, amounting to £500 million, will not deliver the sort of new infrastructure, it will not deliver the number of reopened stations that I think many people hope could be delivered through such a programme. Five hundred million pounds wouldn't deliver the whole reopening of the Carmarthen to Aber line. It would simply not deliver major projects that require significant investment.My understanding of that particular fund is that any project promoted for consideration must be promoted by a Member of Parliament and that that work must be undertaken imminently. Unfortunately, I do not believe that the report that Mick Antoniw refers to will be ready for Members of Parliament representing constituencies in the region to present to the Secretary of State for Transport, and, therefore, as a Government, once that report is concluded, once we have our hands on it, we will be making the case to UK Government for investment along that particular stretch.
I think it's absolutely right that we look at all opportunities to extend the south-east Wales metro. We have the frameworks now in place for examining each of the travel corridors that could benefit from investment, but, at the end of the day, it still comes down to requiring UK Government to invest in infrastructure.

I thank the Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Progress on the Single Cancer Pathway

The next item, item 7, has been postponed.

8. Statement by the Counsel General and Brexit Minister: Legislation related to leaving the EU

And therefore item 8 is the next item for discussion, and that's a statement by the Counsel General and Brexit Minister on legislation related to leaving the EU. I call on the Minister to make his statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I thought it would be helpful to update Members on both recent developments and prospects in relation to legislation arising from our exit from the European Union.
I'll firstly consider the matter of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 and the implications for the Sewel convention. Members will recall that, on the twenty-first of last month, the Senedd followed the Welsh Government’s recommendation in refusing consent for that legislation. As has been rehearsed already in the Senedd, the reasons for this were principally constitutional—the threat that this legislation poses to the Senedd’s competence and the Welsh Government’s capacity to influence the forthcoming negotiations that will have serious consequences for devolved policy areas.
We did all we could to improve the Bill, both before its introduction and then working closely with Members of the House of Lords to put forward amendments that would have made it acceptable from a devolution perspective, but, ultimately, we could not persuade the UK Government.
Our decision here in the Senedd mirrored similar votes in the Northern Ireland Assembly and in the Scottish Parliament—the first time that all three legislatures had refused consent for a single piece of UK parliamentary legislation. Notwithstanding this, the UK Government pushed the Bill to Royal Assent with Parliament overriding the views of the three legislatures.This could have developed into a major constitutional crisis, threatening the foundations of devolution. However, in correspondence, the Secretary of State for the Department for Exiting the European Union described the circumstances as 'singular, specific and exceptional', and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster described them as 'unique'. There were similar comments by Lord Callanan, Minister of State at DExEU, in the Third Reading in the House of Lords and in a written statement issued by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
I subsequently wrote to both Stephen Barclay and Michael Gove, recognising these encouraging signs that the UK Government recognised the graveness of this step and was interpreting the Sewel 'not normally' as 'only in the most exceptional circumstances'. On this basis, I reminded them that we had called, in 'Reforming our Union', for codification of the convention by setting out the circumstances andcriteria under which the UK Government might, in extremis,proceed with its legislation, notwithstanding a lack of devolved legislative consent, and called for the UK Government to engage in a further discussion of this. So, while the UK Government’s decision to proceed with the withdrawal agreement Bill without the consent of the devolved legislatures is of significant concern, it would appear that the UK Government and ourselves believe it should be ring-fenced as a special case, and we now need to build on that.
Moving on, Members will be aware that almost all EU law continues to apply in the UK during the transition period, but the Welsh Government has been considering whether powers to keep pace with EU legislation beyond the transition period are practical and necessary. We do not at this point see an urgent need to bring forward a Senedd Bill containing powers to keep pace with EU legislation at this stage. There are a number of reasons for this.

Jeremy Miles AC: Perhaps the principal one is that we have concerns as to whether providing Welsh Ministers with wide powers to keep pace with all EU legislation within devolved competence through a portmanteau Bill would be acceptable to this Senedd. It would not be consistent with the views expressed by Members in the past therefore the bar for proposing such an approach would be set high.
There are also other available means of enabling Wales to keep pace where we consider it necessary. First, Welsh Ministers already have powers to keep pace with technical modifications to EU tertiary legislation either through functions created in the EU exit SIs as part of the corrections programme or through existing domestic powers. Analysis of the availability of existing powers will need to be undertaken in response to specific EU legislative proposals as they are being developed.
For more significant EU legislation, the legislative process in the EU would provide more than enough time to enable a Bill to be introduced and passed by the Senedd if that was considered necessary.
The context for this analysis is important. The Welsh Government remains committed to the common frameworks process, which we believe should both allow and manage policy divergence between the UK and the devolved Governments, or indeed between each of the devolved Governments. We intend to follow the common frameworks process through to its end before concluding where we might need and be able to follow developments in future EU legislation.Nevertheless, I want to assure Members that we will keep the position under review.
Finally, Members should be aware that a significant body of secondary legislation will be required during this year, although we cannot quantify it in advance of knowing how the negotiations with the EU, and indeed with other third countries, will proceed. In any event, there will be demands from the usual work to implement EU law that comes into force this year; the further correcting SIs that are needed to ensure that retained EU law works in the context of the end of the transition period; and secondary legislation needed to implement the new regimes being established by UK Bills and the withdrawal agreement Act itself.
Work is already well underway to determine the amount of legislation that will be necessary to the extent that we can determine at this point in time, and I will, of course, keep Members updated.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for the advance copy of the statement that he shared with me this afternoon? I'm very grateful for the statement. I think it does present a very different sort of language and tonethan some of the statements we've had in the past in this Chamber regarding arrangements post Brexit, and I very much welcome it. I think that it's very clear that you've considered the future legislative arrangements that might arise in some detail and you're clearly cracking on with any work that may be required as we go forward.
I note that you have decided not to proceed with a portmanteau Bill at present, and I think that that is very wise. I don't think that there's a great deal of appetite for that sort of approach in this Chamber, and I think you recognise that, too, in your statement, which I very much welcome. It doesn't mean, of course, that we would want to accept all of the legislative changes that may happen in this period between now and 31 December. Now, I recognise the fact, for example, that there will be some pieces of legislation that will go through the European Parliament but may not actually have an impact until beyond 31 December, for example. I wonder how you're differentiating between the legislative changes that you may need to keep pace with because they will be implemented during the transition period, versus those that you may not need necessarily to implement because they will be beyond that 31 December timetable.
As you've quite rightly said, there are already significant powers at the disposal of Welsh Ministers to be able to implement and make some technical changes to arrangements through tertiary legislation and, indeed, there will be some secondary legislation powers as well that you may be able to use in order to modify the existing regulations that apply here in Wales. I think it would be useful, perhaps, if there could be some sort of bringing together of those powers into a single document that we can be able to determine where those powers might lie in terms of the levers that you can pull without having to resort to primary legislation in order to make some changes. So perhaps there's some compendium of information that the Welsh Government might usefully be able to bring to the Chamber in order to assist the National Assembly as well, I think, in terms of the scrutiny function that we have as Assembly Members.
I'm very pleased that you recognise the importance of common frameworks across the United Kingdom and that you're seeking to work constructively with the UK Government in order to achieve those. I recognise that, sometimes, there will be healthy debate about how those common frameworks and arrangements might work and that we clearly do need to pin down the systems that will govern those arrangements in the future in order to ensure that the voice of devolved legislatures and the voice of devolved Governments can be strongly influential and appropriately influential in the way that those frameworks are developed. Clearly, you've made a number of statements in the past about how the union should operate, going forward, and I recognise that there need to be changes, too. I think I've put on record in the past my recognition that a future arrangement should be a federal arrangement, and I'm more than happy to have a dialogue with people in any political party in this Chamber in order to try to seek those sorts of arrangements, going forward. But I do think that we need to have some clarity, really, on those powers that you already have, so if you could bring that to us, that would be very helpful indeed.
Perhaps you can also tell us what discussions you've been having with the UK Government to date on those common frameworks. I know that there'll be future discussions taking place, too, but perhaps you can just bring us up to speed in terms of the work that might be going on between your officials and UK Government officials in that respect.
Another concern that I have is about the capacity of Welsh Government, given the significant legislative demands that are already upon this Parliament between now and the next elections to the Welsh Parliament in May next year. What is the capacity of the Welsh Government to be able to bring further significant pieces of legislation forward that might be required, if there are significant pieces of work that might need to be done?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Darren Millar for his questions and for the constructive way in which he has put them.I think in relation both to secondary legislation and the discussion around common frameworks—both of which he touched on, obviously, in his question—those have been, probably of all the areas of engagement, the ones where relationships have been most productive, and we have always sought as a Government to point to those as examples of how when all the Governments in the UK engage together constructively, as we have always sought to do on these benches, then steps forward can be taken. He will know from our previous exchanges that we have not always persuaded the UK Government of that approach, which is a matter of regret.
Nevertheless, on the question of a compendium of powers, I think the availability of the powers that need to be deployed to deal with individual aspects of keeping pace, if I can just put it in that way, will of course depend on the nature of the legislation that is brought forward. Some of those powers we already have through a combination of the European withdrawal Act and the EU withdrawal agreement Act. Some of them we have under the already existing devolution settlement, and then there'll be set of future analyses required as and when legislation comes through to ascertain whether the capacity to keep pace with those fall within the powers that we already have, perhaps through the devolution settlement. Exactly what they are at this point we can't assess, because those decisions are to be taken in the future.
There's a category of secondary legislation that will stem from Bills being passed by the UK Parliament in the context of leaving the European Union. Again, some of those we can identify at this point, but many of them we can't. So, as we stand here today, I'm sadly not in a position to say to you that we understand the full extent of that, because the decisions that govern that analysis haven't yet been made. We would like to be in a position of much greater certainty, but that, obviously, is outside our control.
You asked specifically about the question of common frameworks. It is still our objective to get to a position by the end of this year where we've made significant progress in relation to those. There is a monthly, I believe, formal programme board between officials that keeps that under review. We are very clear that we want to be in a position, as soon as we can reach agreement, to put those into a position where they can be scrutinised by stakeholders and by legislatures across the UK, and we continue to press for progress in relation to that.
In relation to primary legislation, as we stand here today, we don't foresee specific items coming forward but, again, that depends on what is a sadly very fluid and very changing set of circumstances that, for reasons that we don't need to rehearse here again today, are certainly beyond our control as a Government. I think we would all regret the fact that there remains a significant degree of uncertainty in that landscape.

Dai Lloyd AC: May I thank the Counsel General and Brexit Minister for his statement on legislation related to leaving the EU? May I thank him specifically for his detailed analysis of the complex and difficult legislative position that we find ourselves in in exiting the European Union? Now, you mentioned common frameworks, and common frameworks, as you've mentioned on a number of occasions in this Chamber, do mean shared governance, and, of course, require respect between different Governments. It shouldn't be a matter of the Westminster Parliament deciding and every other Parliament on these isles following slavishly in their wake, although, having said that, the outlook isn't particularly promising, as you've set out in this statement of the recent history.
This Parliament refused to give its legislative consent to the EU withdrawal agreement Act, just as did the Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland, but yet the Westminster Parliament proceeded with the withdrawal Act, entirely ignoring all other Parliaments on these isles. Now, that doesn't sound like shared governance to me, and it doesn't sound like the views of other Parliaments on these isles are being respected either, but I do see from your statement that you have already moved on.
You have agreed with members of the Westminster Government that that was an exceptional or a unique position in terms of ignoring the views of the devolved Parliaments. But on what basis have you come to that position? Why would we believe that this couldn't happen again in future, or in all future occasions where we see powers being lost or powers being threatened, or that we will be ignored again, as you have admitted you have been ignored over the past three years, at some point in the future when we again complain, that the definition of a singular, specific and exceptional case will not be used again? What assurance can we have that this will not happen time and time again and every time that this Parliament is ignored that it will be a singular, specific, exceptional case? What assurance have you received on that point?
Now, of course, there's a great deal of legislation that will need to be passed, as you've mentioned, much of it in devolved areas, such as fisheries, agriculture, environment—all devolved to this place for 20 years. So, what influence do you have, or will you have, on the legislative process from this point onwards in these devolved fields? In leaving the European Union, we don't want to lose any powers that we have traditionally held in this Chamber and have done so over 20 years. Yes, of course, originally under the auspices of the European Union, and now under the auspices of the UK, but we don't want to see any powers lost from this place in those areas that have been devolved for 20 years.
And, finally, you also discuss secondary legislation that emerges from these processes, and you've already said that it's difficult to predict exactly how much of that will be required, but how can you ensure that there is improved scrutiny from this Senedd in terms of your work within Government as secondary legislation is passed—statutory instrument consent motions and so on and so forth? Because we've had some difficulty as a legislature in scrutinising what is happening with a broad range of SICMs and so on. So, will the system still be reliant on ordinary backbench Members in this place to push for debates on SICMs, on these secondary legislative consent motions, or will the Welsh Government be more willing and more proactive from here on in than they have been to date in facilitating debates on issues of secondary legislation without using that age-old excuse that time is short or that the burden of work is too great? Thank you very much.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to Dai Lloyd for those questions. While I agree with him that we need to show respect to the devolved Governments, and that respect needs to be shown by the UK Government, we as a Government have always taken every opportunity to make the case for Wales—to stand up for Wales's interest—and to be, to the best of our abilities, constructive in our approach. And that's what our approach will be in the future, and we expect the UK Government to respond in kind.
He mentioned the question of the Sewel convention—namely, what certainty we have that this a unique situation. Well, the first thing I would say is that I hope that he would agree with me that this is, indeed, a unique situation. I know that he's read the document, 'Reforming our Union', which describes in detail the steps that we believe need to be taken to reform the convention and the settlement. We don't believe that the current situation is adequate; we feel that it needs to be reformed. We've explained that we need to codify and describe in detail how discretion can be used to move ahead without the consent of the devolved Governments. We've also spoken about the need for the UK Government to consider that in taking that step. So, we are far from being in a situation of believing that the current situation is ideal, but, having said that, it’s also certainly important to underline the fact that the circumstances have been unique circumstances.
He also mentioned expanding our powers and ensuring that the devolved settlement continues to be respected. Well, that's exactly what we succeeded in doing as a Government through the inter-governmental agreement at the time of the EU withdrawal Bill. Following that agreement, we ensured that the powers that are wielded by the Welsh Government and this Senedd are expanded, and that’s an example of what can happen when we, as a Government, put forward proposals and make our case on the basis of evidence and so on.
Finally, he asked about scrutiny of the Government’s work. There’s been constant discussion with committees about how best to do that. And from the very beginning the Government ensured that we complied with the measures agreed in terms of scrutiny, namely written statements explaining the steps that we have taken and also this question of SICMs. Of course, it's open to any Member to raise a question with regard to a SICM on the floor of the Senedd, and that’s happened successfully when Suzy Davies brought that same issue before us. So, it’s a matter for any Member, as it should be, to do that. I'm sure from discussions that I've had with the committees that Members are content that they have the capacity and the information and the access to appropriate documents to be able to do that, and we saw that succeeding in the example that I mentioned just now.

Mark Reckless AC: May I thank theMinister for his statement? When I saw the title 'legislation related to leaving the EU', I had assumed it would focus on the flow of statutory instruments and the approach we were taking to those, so I particularly thank him for the last two paragraphs that do address that issue. And if I may take into account the tone we had from Darren Millar in his response—I recall a number of similar contributions in the past with a very different tone.
But in light of that, can I reference what the Minister says about the Sewel convention? He says this could have developed into a major constitutional crisis threatening the foundations of devolution, and then references a number of things that the UK Government has done or implied that lead to this not being that. But there's another side to that, and I think that reflects the position of Welsh Government who are looking to reduce the temperature on this and find common ground with UK Government and interpret what they're doing in such a way as to minimise the extent to which they see that as a breach, and I think that is a sensible and an appropriate way of moving forward and putting this behind them.
I do however think that the precedent of that breach of Sewel is still there, and the Minister references three or four documents or speeches from UK Government that means that precedent counts for less in his mind than might otherwise be the case. May I raise one on the other side, and that relates to the comments the Minister makes about our decision here in the Senedd mirroring similar votes in the Northern Ireland and Scottish Parliaments, and the reference to UK Government overriding the views of the three legislatures? Of course, the two other legislatures were expressing the views and representing their electorates who had voted remain. Here, the people of Wales voted to leave, yet, again, with this legislative consent motion, we saw actions that were at least open to the interpretation of being of a piece with three and a half years of seeking to use such powers as we have to impede Brexit.
And the Minister refers to Welsh Government's capacity to influence the forthcoming negotiations. Isn't the key thing that reduces that capacity the fact that Welsh Government, along with Plaid Cymru, adopted a Brexit-in-name-only policy, and then when ultimately Theresa May offered them basically that, and including a customs union—and the Minister said he was happy with the withdrawal agreement and perhaps just a few points about the political declaration—when it came to the crunch, Welsh Government changed its mind, and supported what Welsh Labour and UK Labour did in not standing by that BRINO policy—with the honourable exception, perhaps, of Stephen Kinnock and one or two others—but instead saying, 'Well, we did say that before, but we're not going to stick to that, and we would prefer to have a second referendum and gamble on blocking Brexit altogether, notwithstanding that we said we would respect the referendum before'? Is that not why you do not have the purchase you would wish as UK Government leads these trade negotiations with a majority of 80?
Finally, may I speak about what the Minister says about keeping pace with EU legislation? He seems to talk as if there is the prospect of dynamic alignment with EU standards and regulations through a trade treaty. May I reinforce with him, or at least emphasise the stated position of UK Government, that there will be no such dynamic alignment. We trust they will keep to their promises. If they do, surely there will be no requirement for us to be keeping pace with EU legislation in this way, and if, as he says, there are other available means of enabling Wales to keep pace when we consider it necessary, doesn't that imply that in many areas we will be diverging from UK legislation applicable in England, in a way that will make business in Wales more difficult and less attractive?

Jeremy Miles AC: I think I heard two questions in that contribution. One relates to the actions of this Senedd in relation to voting to withhold consent for the withdrawal agreement Bill. I'll just take the opportunity once again to say, since we seem to be going over some pretty old territory at this point, that the reason this Assembly withheld its consent was because the provisions in the Bill, which the Government recommended to the Assembly, were threatening the position of this institution as part of the devolution settlement. It was not a question of not reflecting the will of the people of Wales. The people of Wales have voted on two occasions for this institution to have certain powers, and that legislation did not respect those, which is why the Senedd withheld its consent.
On the question of dynamic alignment, it's a matter of regret to us as a Government that the UK Government has not decided to seek dynamic alignment, but we have been very clear that we do not wish to see a devolution of standards in relation to the social and environmental and labour standards that we have regarded as an asset here in Wales, and so the very purpose of looking to keep pace with regulation into the future is just to continue to be able to express our values here in Wales in defence of those rights and standards into the future. We would like to be in a position where the UK Government—as all Governments in the UK—feels that the best deal for the UK is in ensuring that those standards are maintained into the future. That's certainly the best deal for businesses across the UK and workers across the UK, and those of us who've enjoyed those standards as part of our daily life, but the UK Government is not persuaded of that, and I think that's a matter of regret.

David Rees AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? And I welcome what he has said. It is clearly important that we now address some of the issues of legislation on Brexit, because people still think Brexit is done, but we all know Brexit is not done. There are many things ahead of us, and we face some challenging times.
You indicated in your statement the question as to Sewel and the fact that the three legislatures said 'no' to the Bill, and I'll highlight my position: I voted against the Bill because it actually was a poor Bill. It didn't give what it should have given: the rights of committees in this institution to scrutinise the actions of the Government in these future EU-UK relationship negotiations. I felt that was something that should have been there, and it was taken out by the UK Government, and therefore I felt the Bill, actually, was not appropriate for this institution.
But you also highlighted that you actually sent a response to both the Secretary of State for DExEU—who is no longer the Secretary of State for DExEU, because that's gone—but also the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, so Stephen Barclay and Michael Gove. Have you had a response from either of those two to your letter? Because you indicated that you recognised it was, as they said, unique, specific, special. Have they agreed with you that it was unique, specific and special, and therefore would not be repeated again? So, it would be nice to know if you've had a response.
You talk about common frameworks. Are you analysing current EU directives and legislation, which may now impact upon those frameworks? And, therefore, when you have the negotiations, you're going to make sure that the common frameworks are able to reflect everything properly, particularly in the sense of the inter-governmental review we're still awaiting; we don't know what that means, or what impact that will have on the common frameworks. Also, in response to the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee's report on common frameworks, you indicated that you would not be in a position to discuss policy issues, because there were still discussions ongoing, and you were awaiting, perhaps—30 Marchwas one of the dates given. Where are we in relation to that, and can we expect a response by 30 March, or are we delayed a little bit further down the line, because, as you highlighted, we are approaching 31 December the more we go on, and on 31 December, this current UK Government has said, the transition ends with or without a deal? And that's a deep concern. You might have been preparing for a 'no deal' scenario prior. You may still need to prepare for a 'no deal' scenario on 31 December as well.
What discussions have you had with the European Parliament on EU legislation that actually will come before it, because you've mentioned in your statement that you expect the legislation process in the European Parliament to be long? I would assume, therefore, they know what's coming in the next 12 months. So, have you had discussions with the European Parliament to say what's going to come before them in the next 12 months? Are there things we should be aware of, and which we may wish to take consideration of in this Chamber, because it is important that we reflect upon that?
And why not bring forward legislation that will require future Welsh Governments to actually bring before the Assembly, or the Senedd, as it will be then, the reasoning as to why they may not want to bring forward any EU legislation in Wales? Because you say where there will be or will not be, but when will we know about it? When will you tell us, as Members of the Senedd, and actually say, 'Well, we don't think this EU legislation is appropriate for Wales'? And will you put that in place to ensure that future Governments will also do the same, so that no-one can basically ignore what's going on in Europe and leave us without an opportunity to discuss it and reflect upon whether it is appropriate for Wales or not?
In relation to the SIs, how many do we still have to go? It's difficult for you—[Inaudible.] It would be nice to know how many we've still got to go because, as has been pointed out by Darren Millar, we have quite a full programme of legislation coming up between now and the end of this Assembly. So, how many are left to go, and how many do you anticipate as a consequence of the transition period, because it is likely that we may have a thin agreement, which is not the full agreement the UK expects? We now know the EU's negotiating position; they've confirmed that today, and they've confirmed the strengthening of their position in relation to a level playing field. So, we also know the UK position is about to be confirmed on Thursday. So, it is important we understand what SIs will be in place, what SIs may be in place as a consequence of a thin agreement, what SIs may be needed as a consequence of no agreement, and therefore that we know the type of timescales we put in this institution.
We do need to know about the 'no deal' scenario because I'm still fearful that it's a possibility, and what the World Trade Organization regards on that—. And, yesterday, the committee heard evidence that that could be catastrophic for us if we get to that stage. And a thin deal won't be great for us, but we need to be ready and prepared for these. The immigration Bill, or the immigration points system has just been announced. We'll have the Agriculture Bill going through; fisheries is coming through. We know fisheries is going to be a big issue in this negotiation—the French have already made that quite clear. So, where are we getting ready in our legislation process, between now and the end of this Assembly, to ensure that Wales is ready to face the next type of relationship that the UK has with the EU?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank David Rees for that range of important questions. On the exchange of correspondence with the UK Government, in their letters to me, they have referred to the circumstances as being unique, exceptional. So, that's language that has come from correspondence that they have sent to us, and I am sure he would join me in hoping that those circumstances are indeed unique, as they are described.
I can assure him that, in the context of the legislation being contemplated during the transition period, we are absolutely keeping abreast of the developments there. The point I was making about future developments related to longer term legislation, so that, as the processes of the European Parliament proceed, that will provide sufficient time for us to be able to identify if there are any future gaps in the powers that we would need to be able to reflect thoselaws in Welsh law and to take steps in the Senedd to legislate in accordance with those requirements. So, that's a slightly longer time frame.
He raised the question around the common frameworks, and absolutely it is our plan to respond to the committee within the time frame that we've set out to the committee, which is the end of March. As I alluded to briefly in the earlier response, there are regular meetings between officials across all Governments on the question of common frameworks, and so we will be in a position to provide an update within that time period.
In relation to the sorts of issues that might not fall within the keeping pace ambit, if you like, things that we might, I guess, elect not to keep pace with—EU legislation, as he knows very well, covers a range of areas. Some of them are geographically specific, some of them are so intimately tied up to the machinery of membership of the European Union as not to be appropriate, some European law provides a range of means by which member states themselves are able to give those directions force of law and so forth. So, there's a range of scenarios in which keeping pace may not apply, if you like, which we will need to keep under review.
I have some sympathy with him in relation to his last question. He asks somewhat plaintively how many SIs are we contemplating. I'm not in a position, unfortunately, to say to you today what that number is. Some of them will relate to implementation of legislation going through Parliament now, some of them will relate to correcting changes that arise from the change in the date on which EU law ceases to apply, so the end of this year. Some of it will relate to implementing obligations on a continuing basis throughout the transition period, and some of it will relate to implementing the outcomes of any agreements with the European Union and, indeed, with third countries. And just by describing the list, I know you will appreciate that it's today impossible to quantify with any precision what that amounts to. But there are certainly scenarios in which that could surpass the volume of SIs that we have to enact in order to contemplate a 'no deal' departure, and I know that he's aware of the Herculean task that that involved.

David Melding AC: Can I just add my support to the Counsel General for the approach he's taken? I think it's fair to say, despite our occasional disagreements, that the Welsh Government, in trying to strengthen the British constitution under devolution, usually ends up in the right place. I sometimes have arguments about how you eventually got there, but I do think the work you've done with the Sewel convention is important, given that it obviously was breached, because there was not a normal circumstance. And I've never thought the word 'normal' was very helpful, and at least we now have language from the UK Government—'singular' and 'exceptional', and I think you used another adjective as well—which I do think is helpful.
But what I do support is that we move to some sort of expanded convention or codify somehow around the phrasing that you chose, in terms of it would be denied only in the most exceptional circumstances. I do think that would be a better description of the position we're in where we have to acknowledge ultimate parliamentary sovereignty in Westminster, but obviously devolution is just made a nonsense if Sewel really is in a fairly casual way defied. So, I think that's important.
I think you're right: there doesn't seem a need for a Senedd Bill to keep pace with EU legislation in the transition period. I'm completely satisfied that you can do that through the various technical powers you have and, should something major come along, then the proper thing is to bring a Bill in. I can't see anyone finding an objection to that.
If you permit me the indulgence, Presiding Officer, I do want to congratulate my colleague Darren Millar on his conversion or avowalnow of federalism. [Laughter.] I have to say it's been a lonely—[Interruption.]—it's been a lonely—[Interruption.] I do apologise, it must have been a bit of a whisper and I didn't pick it up. [Laughter.] But I'm delighted to have such a distinguished ally. I do recommend to you, Darren, and indeed to the Counsel General, if you've not already read it, my e-book available at the IWA, The Reformed Union—. Now, where did we hear that phrase? Who pinched that later? The Reformed Union: The UK as a Federation.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I've been absolutely tantalised by the instalments on Twitter from David Melding's book on the future of the constitution, which I commend to all Members. On the question of keeping pace, we will keep under review whether that needs to be brought forward. Our assessment today is that isn't necessary, but we will be keeping that under review. Should that analysis change, then so might the recommendation.
Just briefly, on the question of the Sewel convention, I think his point is that this requires reform, and there is a platform of discussions on which we now have to build for that to be reformed. As I mentioned in my statement, 'Reforming our Union' sets that out in detail. And, as a lawyer, I'm drawn to looking at the more precise formulations for that, but there is also a case for discussing whether or not we should move from simply 'not normally' to 'not'.

I thank the Minister for the statement.

9. The Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Prescribed Limits of Default Payments) (Wales) Regulations 2020

The next item is the Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Prescribed Limits of Default Payments) (Wales) Regulations 2020. I call on the Minister for housing to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM7273 Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales; in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Prescribed Limits of Default Payments) (Wales) Regulations 2020 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 28 January 2020.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. This is the fourth statutory instrument to be made under the Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Wales) Act 2019. The Act creates offences for a landlord or letting agent to require certain payments in consideration of granting, renewing or continuing a standard occupation contract. Any payment of money is prohibited unless it is permitted under section 4(1)(a) or is a permitted payment by virtue of Schedule 1 to the Act.
Paragraph 6 of Schedule 1 to the Act provides that regulations may prescribe a limit on a default payment in respect of a failure by the contract holder to pay rent by the due date and specify any additional description of default. In such cases where the contract holder is at fault, the landlord may require the contract holder to make a payment in default. These regulations specify prescribed limits for certain types of payments required in the event of a default by a contract holder of a standard occupation contract in relation to late rent and the cost of changing, adding or removing a lock and replacement of a key or other security device. Following our public consultation, it was clear that these are amongst the most commonly charged default payments and, as stakeholders suggested during scrutiny of the Bill, the ones most open to abuse.
In relation to late rent, the prescribed limit will be determined by regulation at the Bank of England base interest rate plus 3 per cent as an annual percentage rate, or APR, on the overall amount outstanding, seven days after the rent was due. This will prevent a landlord or agent from issuing unduly high charges for late payment of rent, which can create a cycle of debt and undermine the ability of the contract holder to sustain the tenancy.
In relation to the cost of changing, adding or removing a lock and the replacement of a key or other security device, the regulations will ensure that landlords do not have to cover the cost of these when the contract holder is at fault and that contract holders are only charged the actual cost. I intend to monitor the impact of these regulations along with the Act in general; this will assist in determining whether limits needs to be placed on other default payments in the future. Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Thank you. I have no speakers. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill

Item 10 is a motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move the motion. Vaughan Gething.

Motion NDM7272 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:
Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:
a) Sections 2 - 12;
b) Schedule 1;
c) Sections 13 - 21;
d) Schedule 2;
e) Sections 22 - 25;
f) Schedule 3;
g) Sections 26 - 28;
h) Section 1;
i) Long title.

Motion moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Move formally.

Move formally, thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. Debate: The Equality and Human Rights Annual Review 2018-19

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Item 11 on our agenda this afternoon is a debate on the equality and human rights annual review of 2018-19. I call on the Deputy Minister and the Chief Whip to move the motion. Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM7271 Rebecca Evans
To propose the National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the Equality and Human Rights Commission Wales annual report, Wales Impact Report 2018-19.

Motion moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity today to debate the latest Equality and Human Rights Commission Wales committee annual report, the 'Wales Impact Report 2018-19'. The annual debate on the outstanding work of the commission here in Wales always provides the opportunity for reflection and discussion on how Wales is performing on equality and human rights. It also provides the opportunity to consider what more can be done to further advance and improve equality and human rights. Over the years, I've met regularly with the chair and head of the EHRC in Wales, as have my ministerial colleagues, to discuss the state of equalityin Wales and strengthen our commitment to work together to tackle entrenched and persistent inequalities.

Jane Hutt AC: Since its establishment in 2007, the Welsh Government has developed an excellent and highly valued relationship with the EHRC here in Wales. And, whilst the EHRC has responsibility as a regulator, it also provides the invaluable role of the critical friend. This valued relationship is going to be particularly important over the next three years, given the amount of work that we want to achieve. We are taking a more co-productive approach across Welsh civil society to many of the strands of work we're taking to safeguard and enhance equality and human rights in Wales. The EHRC will be central to this.
I'll turn to the 'Wales Impact Report 2018-19', which clearly highlights the breadth of hard work and dedication of the EHRC in Wales to put equality and human rights at the heart of life in Wales. Their work during 2018-19 included the 'Is Wales Fairer?' report, which looked at all areas of life in Wales and has proven to be a valuable and essential source of evidence to help us ensure that our decision making is robust and that our policies and services take account of people's needs and are accessible to all. Officials across Welsh Government have been using the findings, evidence and recommendations to shape the action plan that will accompany the final set of equality objectives within the Welsh Government's strategic equality plan for 2020 to 2024, which will be published at the end of March.
The commission undertook an extensive exercise to monitor levels of compliance with the statutory requirements of the public sector equality duty—PSED for short—and to gather evidence and intelligence on what work was undertaken across the different sectors to address key inequalities. Following the monitoring exercise, the commission has met with the majority of chief executives of the listed public bodies to discuss their findings, and sectoral briefings were produced as a result of the findings. The briefings are intended to be used to improve public bodies' equality objectives and also to inform the review of the duties, to which the Welsh Government is committed. The review will look at how we can improve the Welsh-specific duties to require public bodies in Wales to take action to address pay and employment differences, report on progress and publish pay gap data.
Last year, the EHRC and Welsh Government jointly organised a symposium event to gather thinking about the review to ensure that it has maximum impact. This approach will help to ensure that any changes to the PSED contribute to the Welsh Government's wider work on advancing and strengthening equality and human rights. The commission's legal work showed how the commission makes a real difference to people's lives—for example, by helping to clarify the law to ensure that disabled tenants are able to make reasonable alterations to their homes, allowing them to live independently. Its disability and housing report looks at the current provision of accessible and adaptable housing for disabled people and makes recommendations for the Welsh Government, and this has helped shape our new framework, 'Action on Disability: The Right to Independent Living', which I launched last September. The framework sets out how we are fulfilling our obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, the UNCRPD, and also highlights the role of key legislation, including the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. The social model of disability lies at the heart of both the UN convention and our new framework and I committed to promoting the social model through our new framework. We're working actively to promote the model both within Welsh Government and more widely.
The commission's work on harassment in the workplace and the inquiry into racial harassment in higher education exposed unacceptable treatment that should not and cannot be tolerated in Wales or anywhere else in the world. In the foreword to the EHRC report 'Is Wales Fairer?', former commissioner for Wales June Milligan, to whom I pay tribute for her time in that role, called on the Welsh Government to enact the socioeconomic duty. So, as Members are fully aware, it's the intention of this Government to commence the socioeconomic duty, requiring certain public bodies to consider the inequalities caused by their strategic decisions, and the commission has been hugely helpful in ensuring that, once enacted, the duty delivers its intended effect.
Following the referendum on exiting the European Union, the UK's four statutory bodies for human rights and equality were united in their commitment to protect and enhance equality and human rights standards across the UK, being particularly concerned that loss of the protections afforded within the EU charter of fundamental rights would lead to a regression of rights, such as employment rights, women's rights, health and safety protections, et cetera. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has recommended that Welsh Government should further incorporate UN treaties, including the United Nations' convention on the rights of disabled people, and where possible legislate to replace gaps in rights in domestic law resulting from the loss of the EU charter.
I was pleased to announce at my oral questions on 28 January that research has been commissioned on wider options to strengthen and advance equality and human rights in Wales, and the research will be undertaken by a consortium led by Swansea University. Among other things, the research will consider the possible incorporation of UN conventions into Welsh law and whether there may be a need for fresh legislation, such as a human rights Bill for Wales. It will consider how such actions would interact with the existing framework provided by the well-being of future generations Act. It will also look at whether further integration will strengthen and improve the promotion of equality. This research is expected to report by the end of this year, 2020. This work accords with the amendment tabled to this debate, which we will support.
To oversee and provide strategic direction to this work, I've convened a steering group consisting of key stakeholders, which I chair. The group also oversees the implementation of phase 2 recommendations of our gender equality review, and the commencement of the socioeconomic duty. I'm pleased to have the EHRC as members of this group.
The commission's work on apprenticeships and their involvement in the inclusive apprenticeships task and finish group helped shaped the action plan to increase the participation of disabled people in apprenticeships in Wales.
Of course, there are other areas of work that are equally important. Despite many positive changes in the way that disabled people, LGBT+ people, women and black and minority ethnic communities are treated, our country still isn't a fair and more equal place for everyone. The commission's work has highlighted this, and its advice and recommendations to us and the wider public sector have influenced and driven policy decisions and continued action to achieve our vision of a more equal Wales. There is more to be done and more we will do. Diolch.

Thank you. I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on Helen Mary Jones to move that amendment, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Amendment 1—Siân Gwenllian
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to outline a comprehensive strategy for protecting human rights in a robust and meaningful way now that the UK has left the European Union.

Amendment 1moved.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to move this amendment, speaking in the place of my colleague Leanne Wood, who is unable to be with us this afternoon. I'd like to begin by saying that I'm very grateful to the Minister for accepting our amendment, which was tabled in the spirit hoping that she would.
I want to associate myself with all the positive things that the Minister has said about the work of the Equality and Human Rights Commission here in Wales. It's my belief that they do a great deal of work with relatively little resource and I know that that work impacts, as the Minister has said, and I know that it will continue to do so.
However, I wish to raise some concerns, not about the Equality and Human Rights Commission, but about the environment in which it may find itself working. We know that the Conservative Government at Westminster, which is responsible for the funding and the management of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, under the UK legislation that currently governs equality law here in Wales, has a long-term commitment to repealing and replacing this legislation. As the Minister has said in her speech, I have real concerns about what that replacement might contain.
This is a Government with a strong commitment to deregulation—a Westminster Government with a strong commitment to deregulation—and we know, do we not, Dirprwy Lywydd, that deregulation often means removing the protections of the most vulnerable, whether that's the protections of people working in dangerous environments under health and safety, or whether, in this case, this is the protections, for example, of women and girls to have their rights protected in work if they need to go on maternity leave.
I'm very pleased to hear the Minister say that she is intending, as she's said before, to enact the socioeconomic duty and I'd be grateful if she was able to tell us this afternoon what sort of time frame she's intending to do this. Because it's our contention on these benches thatthe tradition of support for the promotion of equality and social justice, which has been, I think, shared fairly broadly across many parts of this Assembly, is now under threat by the changing environment at Westminster. I believe that we need to insert a sense of urgency in some of the work that the Minister has already outlined.
I was very pleased to hear her say earlier that she was committed to the research, which she's already mentioned to us, to look at what kind of legal framework we may need to have here in Wales to protect the rights of our citizens going forward. I was also pleased to hear her say that that work includes looking at the potential to incorporate the UN conventions on human rights more broadly into Welsh law.
I feel that it is time, and we believe that it is now time, to consider going further than that and to seek a clear and simple devolution of equality responsibilities to this Senedd, because it is my firm belief that we will be able to develop a consensus around the kind of approach to equality and human rights that it may not be possible to deliver in Westminster. And it is my concern that the positive work that the Equality and Human Rights Commission do now may become impossible if they are working in an environment where the UK Government—working at a GB level in this case, of course, because arrangements in the north of Ireland are different—are hostile to its work.
The Minister may remember, going back a very, very long time to the 1980s and early 1990s, that a lot of the good work that was then done by the Equal Opportunities Commission in Wales, led by our late colleague Val Feld, actually had to be done in spite of the central policy that was coming out of the then central Government. I don't think we can expect our Equality and Human Rights Commission to function that way 30 years later, doing positive work like—. For example, the Deputy Minister will remember the creation of Chwarae Teg, which is a very, very important organisation in Wales now, that had to be done in spite of rather than with the support of the then Equal Opportunities Commission centrally.
So, I would ask the Minister, in her response to this debate—and I won't repeat the positive things she's said about the specific pieces of work that the Equality and Human Rights Commission have done this year—to inject some speed into this work, because I feel that the environment may change more quickly than we are expecting, and that we may find ourselves with more work to do if we don't, for example, create a Wales-based legislative framework to protect the human rights of our fellow citizens and to promote the more equal society that I know the Deputy Minister—and she has our full support—is seeking to promote.
So, I don't disagree at all, Diprwy Lywydd, with anything that the Minister has said—I would support it all—but what I am concerned about is that changing environment and the need to inject some speed into this work, so that we don't find ourselves, for example, with an Equality and Human Rights Commission in Wales that has been so stripped of resources that it can barely do its job. Diolch yn fawr.

John Griffiths AC: I'm pleased to speak in this debate in my capacity as Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. I do believe that the commission's 'Impact Report' lists a wide range of activities across almost all areas of devolved responsibility, and so is very much a matter for important and significant debate here. Of course, the commission acts as an important source of expertise, both for the Assembly and, indeed, for the Government.
One of the big achievements of this reporting period was the publication of 'Is Wales Fairer?' in 2018, and I do believe that's a comprehensive and, indeed, illuminating report, setting out both the challenges we face in making Wales more equal and fair, and also in terms of the set of 42 broad recommendations that could help deliver real and lasting change if implemented.
In fact, much of those recommendations chime with our committee's findings, and in particular I would like to highlight those relating to protecting equality and human rights post Brexit: improving data collection on homelessness; encouraging more employers in Wales, including the Welsh Government, to offer flexible working from day one; addressing pregnancy and maternity discrimination; improving the public sector equality duties; ensuring full implementation of the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015; and minimisation of barriers to ensure that the broadest range of people take part in Welsh political life.
We are currently, as a committee, following up these issues in our current scrutiny work—or we will be looking to do so during the final months of the Assembly. And I would, Dirprwy Lywydd, like to ask the Deputy Minister if she can outline whether recommendation 25, which calls for the Welsh Government to set achievable and binding targets for poverty reduction and to report on progress annually, will be implemented; and, if so, when these targets will be set.
Moving on to other areas of the commission's work over the reporting period, our committee has benefited from their expertise in our work, in particular: when they gave evidence to our inquiry into parenting, employment and maternity in July 2018; and as part of our joint work alongside the Finance and Children, Young People and Education Committees in November 2018, when we looked at the effectiveness of Welsh Government budget impact assessments; and their work on the cumulative impact of tax and welfare reforms on public spending, which was very much informative in terms of our consideration of the possible devolution of those benefits.
In addition to that, our committee has been directly influenced by the 'Impact Report' and its indications in terms of the breadth of the commission's work. That, of course—in terms of our understanding and appreciation of their work—very much includes the way that they've supported individual legal cases on important issues, such as access to education and adapting homes in the rental sector. And, of course, their report is also important in terms of highlighting their goals for 2019 to 2022, all of which we can agree are important and commendable objectives: ensuring that people's life chances aren't held back by barriers in their way; making sure we have strong foundations on which to build a more equal and rights-respecting society; and to protect the rights of people in the most vulnerable situations.
So, given all of that very important and significant work, Dirprwy Lywydd, I look forward to seeing how these goals are met through the commission's work in the coming year. And, in closing, I would like to commend the 'Impact Report' to the Assembly and that very important work that the commission continues to do.

Mark Isherwood AC: As this annual 'Wales Impact Report' states, the Equality and Human Rights Commission's goals are to:
'Ensure that people's life chances aren't held back by barriers in their way'
—in other words, the social model—
'Make sure we have strong foundations on which to build a more equal and rights-respecting society'
and
'Protect the rights of people in the most vulnerable situations'.
It refers to the launch of their 'Housing and disabled people: Wales's hidden crisis' report. I chaired a meeting of the cross-party group on disability, at which the commission spoke about this. They expressed concern about: the lack of data held by local authorities around disabled people's housing requirements and knowledge of the stock they hold; concern that only 55 per cent of local authorities said that they conducted equality and impact assessments on their local development plans; and they rightly stressed the importance of listening to disabled people.
The report found that there is a significant shortage of accessible homes. Disabled people are not getting the support they need to live independently. There was no target in the Welsh Government's 20,000 affordable housing target by 2021 for accessible homes. Only one out of 22 local authorities has set a percentage target for accessible and affordable homes, and only 15 per cent of local authorities in Wales said that the information they had about disabled people's housing requirements was good.
The European convention on human rights was drafted by the Council of Europe, not the European Union. As a signatory, the UK would be breaking international law if it failed to respect the rights in the convention. The 2019 UK Conservative manifesto states that the UK Government
'will update the Human Rights Act'
and establish
'a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission that will examine these issues in depth'.
I trust the commission will be involved in this. It also states that
'the UK has long been a beacon of freedom and human rights—and will continue to be so.'
This 'Impact Report' refers to the commission's 2018 'Is Wales Fairer?' report, and the commission is keen for the Welsh Government to provide actual evidence detailing how it is taking forward its specific recommendations. I hope the Minister will respond to that.
Highlighting the difficulties experienced by disabled people accessing public transport, it recommended that Transport for Wales should work with Network Rail and rail contractor KeolisAmey to improve accessibility of the existing rail infrastructure across Wales, and that public transport providers and regulators should provide training to ensure all staff have the knowledge and skills to help meet the needs of disabled passengers.
Although the Welsh Government has stated that it intends to explore further incorporation of human rights in law in Wales, it voted against Darren Millar's proposal to incorporate the UN principles for older persons in Welsh law. It therefore now needs to set out its specific proposals.
I regularly hear from disabled people who have been discriminated against and, therefore, need the commission to support strategic legal cases that establish legal precedent. I therefore welcome the cases that were supported by the commission that resulted in the Special Educational Needs Tribunal for Wales ruling that a north Wales school unlawfully discriminated on the grounds of disability—it sounds identical to a case I was involved with, involving an autistic pupil—and in a judgment that means that we heard that landlords must allow disabled leaseholders to make changes that are reasonable and necessary.
I've previously spoken here in support of a proposed Bill to incorporate the UN convention on the rights of disabled persons into Welsh law, and called for Welsh Government action to address the failure by public agencies to carry out their duties and responsibilities to disabled people, noting that the Equality Act 2010 requires service providers to think ahead and address barriers that impede disabled people. This 'Impact Report' notes that the Welsh Government has committed to review the public sector equality duty in Wales, in line with the commission's recommendations.
I will therefore close by referring to just three recent examples amongst many where this is being ignored on the ground: where a local education authority has told the parents of a young girl that she should not go to her local primary school because they deemed her wheelchair adaptations too expensive without consulting them—that is current; where Flintshire based Changing Places campaigner Kim Edwards stated, 'Currently, people with profound disabilities are excluded from their local towns because they're not able to have their basic human needs met, simply to use a toilet'; and where social services failed to establish and meet the communication and processing needs of an autistic child when they interviewed her, and then determined that she was not at risk of abuse from her perpetrator—fortunately, the court saw through this earlier this month.

Neil McEvoy AC: I wanted to start on the rights of children, really, to talk about this, because there are serious gaps in where we are in Wales. This is a concrete example: where a child in care can allege abuse, the child will not receive an advocate as they should do—they have the right to an advocate, as confirmed by the children's commissioner recently; they will not be taken to a place of safety—or they could, in some circumstances, not be taken to a place of safety; and it's possible they will not be spoken to by a child protection specialist. So, we are debating equalities and rights and so on here today, but this is happening right now. It has happened, and it really needs addressing. It's completely unacceptable that young people are deprived of their rights and their voices are just not being listened to.
I'd like to talk as well about the progress that needs to be made in terms of maternity rights and also paternity rights for fathers. I think we're still well behind the curve on the domestic abuse of men, because one in three victims now are male, and there really is a huge lack of provision. I remember when I first mentioned it here in the Assembly, I was told to get my facts right—sorry, not to get my facts right, but to get my priorities right. That was the word—'priorities'. And I thought, 'Wow, I'm here as somebody who's been through that, actually', years ago and there was nowhere to go—nowhere to turn. And I remember, from my experience, telling people that I'd taken up white-collar boxing, because I was so embarrassed about the state of my face. I see person after person in my office and there's very, very little support for them out there.
In December, I gave a lecture in equalities at Bradford University—I did the Rosa Parks memorial lecture. I really thought there that we're light years behind in Wales in terms of equalities. We have a very multicultural capital, but it is not reflected in the environment of this Assembly in terms of professional staff. I think there's a big issue. It's either unconscious racism or it's perhaps clever, conscious racism in many areas of Welsh society, and every person of colour I speak to, we have the same conversation, because when we think we're being assertive, we're always called 'aggressive'; when we think we're being passionate, we're told that we're angry; when we try to do the best we can, we're told that we're awkward and not team players. And recently, I'm just fed up, really, with the number of articulate, bright, intelligent women of colour who I meet who are automatically labelled 'angry' because they assert their own personality and they want to be themselves, and they insist on being themselves and they speak up for themselves and because of this, they're 'angry' and 'aggressive'. I think there's a whole load of subconscious racism in society that we need to, first of all, admit exists. What was great about the lecture I gave: I asked the question at the beginning, 'Who is prejudiced here?', and everyone put their hands up. There are many environments where I could have asked the same question and no hands would have gone up at all.
I want to finish, lastly, on class, because I think the biggest inequality we face is class inequality and in particular housing. The number of young people and working class people who are unable to buy their own properties now, and they pay a tremendous amount of money in rent to councils and rent to housing associations and that money is lost to their families. Whereas, with the more middle-class people who own properties or several properties, their children will have the inheritance from that—the inheritance from equity—and what this Assembly has done in passing laws to stop people being able to buy social housing has reinforced inequality—[Interruption.] Yes.

David Melding AC: That's an important point, but the main reason for this is a lack of housing supply—that is what has driven house prices up and maintained a section of society that have an interest in seeing house prices remaining high. And I have to say that the person who consistently argues against more house building in this Chamber is you.

Neil McEvoy AC: No, you're wrong there. What I consistently argue against is building on greenfield sites. For example, right now in Cardiff, there are 1,300 empty proprieties standing, unused. They should be renovated and we should put people back in them. What I'm actually talking about is the inability of people to save a huge, huge deposit and buy a property. It's reinforcing inequality. And until we enable people to buy their own houses and we enable people to be independent in their own lives in that way—in asserting their own personal sovereignty—then we're not going to really address the issue of class inequality. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I, before I begin, just say what a pleasure it is to serve on the committee under the stewardship of John Griffiths? I concur with many of the comments that he made in terms of the varied evidence that we've seen in various inquiries in the time that I've been on there and preceding me as well. And I very much welcome the Minister's statement in response to the report of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the work that the commission is doing. I think this country of ours in Wales has led the way very much. It has built on the very good progress that we've made in the previous decade and more on a UK basis, but has carved its own way in terms of equality and human rights as well.
But I just want to focus on one area, because today I've been mulling over a report that deals with one particular area of inequality, and it's the area that deals with health inequality. I think there's nothing more stark than the knowledge that where you're born, the situation and circumstances you're born into, will materially affect how many years you have to live and the quality of that life. The Marmot report has come out in the last few days—a very authoritative report. The Government itself has welcomed the report, but I think it's probably going to struggle to deal with some of the conclusions that it has come to. I've been looking though, Deputy Presiding Office, some of the charts, because it helps me very often when I look at some of the pictorial evidence in front of us, when we see the charts that show that life expectancy is now falling amongst the poorest people in certain English regions. By the way, it says there are implications in Wales as well, which I'll come to in a moment.
In the past decade, a third of English children were living in poverty for three years running, and those numbers are going up. If we look at some of the other key ones, which I've printed off today, the increase in life expectancy at birth in England began to slow after 2010, and this is projected to continue. The UK has now a higher proportion of children living in poverty than Poland, Ireland and the OECD average, and if Members want to know what the OECD average is, it's 13.1 per cent living in poverty, and in the UK, it's now 17.5 per cent. All the indicators in England are going the wrong way, but they're also going the wrong way across England as well. So, how have we got to this position? And by the way, it does all point to a certain departure point where things started going wrong.
Well, what we see now is that life expectancy has now stalled in the UK for the first time in more than a hundred years, and it has reversed for certain groups, including ethnic minorities, and also the most deprived women in society. The report that has come out, the Marmot report, which is authoritative, is expert-led and is wide in its scope and deep in its expert research, has put that down largely to the impact of cuts that have come directly out of austerity policies. It is not me saying this—it is the report that is saying it. In fact, Marmot, who is the director of the UCL Institute of Health Equity said, and I quote directly,
'The UK has'—previously—
'been seen as a world leader in identifying and addressing health inequalities but something dramatic is happening. This report is concerned with England, but in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland the damage to health and wellbeing is similarly nearly unprecedented.'
And he goes on to say,
'austerity has taken a significant toll on equity and on health, and it is likely to continue to do so.'
It is responsible for life expectancy flatlining, people's health deteriorating and the widening of health inequalities. And if I can just go slightly further on, in a foreword to the report Marmot says,
'From rising child poverty and the closure of children's centres'—
Bear in mind that he's talking about England, but the impact of austerity has got a wide reach, because he says it also applies to Scotland and Wales as well.
'From rising child poverty and the closure of children’s centres, to declines in education funding, an increase in precarious work and zero hours contracts, to a housing affordability crisis and a rise in homelessness, to people with insufficient money to lead a healthy life and resorting to foodbanks in large numbers, to ignored communities with poor conditions and little reason for hope.'
Austerity, he says,
'will cast a long shadow over the lives of children born and growing up under its effects'.
He describes it as 10 lost years, and the generation that have gone through those 10 years will bear the burden of those 10 lost years, the children who are born within it.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip to reply to the debate? Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to thank contributions from across the Chamber by Assembly Members, and also take the opportunity to thank the Wales committee of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and I think many of them are here today. I'd like to just start by thanking Helen Mary Jones for her very pertinent points about the challenges that we face, and quite rightly as well acknowledging the work of the Equality and Human Rights Commission to question us about how we are delivering and addressing those challenges, and working with the EHRC in terms of the opportunities.
Of course, the opportunity that we have taken is to enact the socioeconomic duty. It was, as I said, very clearly called for in 'Is Wales Fairer?' and it will apply to relevant eligible public bodies, and that will include, of course, Welsh Ministers, local health boards, NHS trusts, Welsh special health authorities, local authorities, fire and rescue services, the Welsh Revenue Authority and national park authorities—so, key public bodies under the 2010 Act. And we are working towards a coming-into-force date of 1 April 2020. We've had the consultation, which was launched last year, and we've got a wide range of views from members of the public from events that we held, and feedback was generally positive in terms of welcoming the duty.

Jane Hutt AC: But, as I mentioned about the co-productive approach to policy making, we are going to engage with partners in terms of developing the guidance to ensure that the socioeconomic duty works for public bodies to whom it applies, and delivers for the people of Wales. Of course, we will seek that, and it will tackle many of the points that have been made by Members about tackling socioeconomic inequalities.
Of course, there have been numerous calls in recent years for the Welsh Government to take legislative action to strengthen and advance equality and human rights here in Wales, and commencing the socioeconomic duty under the Equality Act 2010 is going to ensure that we look at the impact of strategic decisions on the poorest people and groups in Wales. But clearly, also reviewing the Welsh-specific duties under the public sector equality duty is vital to ensure that they're up to date, proportionate, and effective, and I thank Mark Isherwood for giving concrete examples so that public bodies and, of course, the EHRC, listening to this can see where indeed we do need to undertake a rigorous review of the PSED and how we deliver that.
Of course, we are working closely with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to review the monitoring and improve the reporting arrangements so that equality data reports from Welsh public bodies are easy to find and understand. It's very clear that if we are going to develop and create a fairer society where diversity is valued and respected, where people don't face discrimination and prejudice, a society where people can participate, flourish and have the opportunity to fulfil their objectives—. So, we will, obviously, take that forward in terms of our responsibilities with our equality objectives for the next four years.
I'm grateful to John Griffiths for your points as well in terms of responding to 'Is Wales Fairer?' and for the valuable work that you undertake with leading your committee. And, of course, you are quite right in terms of tackling poverty, and that call for the socioeconomic duty to be tackled will be one part of the response to that. But the Welsh Government doesn't hold all the levers needed to make that difference to the headline figure for poverty in Wales, and we have to recognise the research by EHRC into the impact of the UK Government's tax and welfare reforms. You talked about the cumulative impact of tax and welfare reforms, and the fact that disabled households and those with children are particularly at risk. So, the work that we are doing to address this is crucial, not just in terms of the socioeconomic duty, but particularly in terms of access to transport and enforcement, and that's where, of course, our framework, 'Action on Disability: The Right to Independent Living' is so important.
So, I think, also, just in terms of responding to our responsibilities, I was very pleased to come before the committee to be scrutinised on our progress with the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence legislation, and the progress that we are making in term of delivering five years into that pioneering legislation, and we're holding an event in north Wales to develop a strategy for the next five years. The Wales Audit Office did find that the Act is transforming services, and there's evidence of good collaboration in parts of Wales. But it is also about prevention and making sure that we are working not just in terms of the perpetrators, but with education, with children and young people.
I would like to thank Huw Irranca for speaking about the importance oftackling health inequalities as well. Of course, it is the health inequalities, recognising Professor Marmot's pioneering and inspiring work, that it's clear we need to address.
On data gaps, thank you, Mark, for mentioning that as well. There are clear gaps in the data in Wales that make it difficult to understand the experiences of people sharing all protected characteristics, but tomorrow I am meeting the deputy national statistician to discuss the census and ways in which we can look at the statistics and work, indeed, with the UK Government to explore whether limitations can be overcome by data linkage.
Action on the disability framework is an absolutely key priority for the Welsh Government, using the social model of disability and engaging, as we already are in terms of access and inequalities in relation to transport.
I would like to conclude by recognising that the landscape of equality and human rights over the next months and years is challenging. The presence and dedication of the EHRC to work with us on this agenda is vital. It's clear that we have opportunities to strengthen our resolve, seek the positive outcomes that will make a real difference to the lives of the people we serve in our richly diverse nation.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore we'll defer voting under this item until voting time.
I intend to now move to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. No. Okay, then.

Voting deferred until voting time.

12. Voting Time

We'll vote on the debate on the equality and human rights annual review 2018-19. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 32, 10 abstentions, 1 against. Therefore the amendment is agreed.

NDM7271 - Amendment 1: For: 32, Against: 1, Abstain: 10
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7271as amended:
To propose the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes the Equality and Human Rights Commission Wales annual report, Wales Impact Report 2018-19.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to outline a comprehensive strategy for protecting human rights in a robust and meaningful way now that the UK has left the European Union.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 43, 1 abstention, 1 against. Therefore the amended motion is agreed.

Motion NDM7271 as amended: For: 43, Against: 1, Abstain: 1
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:17.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Dawn Bowden: Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact of recent flooding on Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney?

Mark Drakeford: Details on the extent of impact of the recent flooding are continuing to emerge as recovery and clean-up operations are under way, but the initial assessment for the Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney constituency is that 246 residential and four commercial properties have experienced internal flooding.

Neil McEvoy: Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government financial support for this year's St David's Day parades?

Mark Drakeford: St David's Day parades are an important part of our culture and have been funded by some local authorities and local groups across Wales.

Rhianon Passmore: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the the damage caused by recent storms to communities in Islwyn?

Mark Drakeford: Details on the extent of impact of the recent flooding are continuing to emerge as recovery and clean-up operations are under way, but the initial assessment from Caerphilly County Borough Council is that 22 residential and two commercial properties have experienced internal flooding in Islwyn.